Not defined by the BJCP. Should it be? Or will it be gone again in 5 years time?
I would have said myself that it's definitely a hipster brew, and I think there'll be a lot less of it around in 2019.
It's a style now, it won't go away.
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we.dont.know.
Its been a thing since 2010 (perhaps even earlier?). Just gaining popularity now with breweries looking for something new I guess. I think the beer title is a total joke & needs a more fitting name like India Dark Ale or Cascadian Dark Ale. Its a lovely beer when its done right. Brewed wrong & you just have an american stout. Here to stay I would say.
Mitch Steele tells us it's been going on from the early 90's in some places and then there's this:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ie/2012/11/lets-brew-special-1859-barclay-perkins.html
I think the problem is that it is not as clear cut as other styles. Some are definitely roasty/stouty, whereas others are black only in colour.
The problem mainly is that the category title is an oxymoron, pale black is ehh grey is't it?
Quote from: Eoin on February 06, 2014, 09:32:01 AM
The problem mainly is that the category title is an oxymoron, pale black is ehh grey is't it?
I've always found the name silly for that reason too, is it black or pale? It's like an Alanis Morissette lyric :P I love the BIPA's that I've tried though. I think Cascadian Dark Ale is a much more appropriate name for the style.
It is very fashionable at the moment so I suppose it could be called a fad. But the fact that it's a very tasty beer should mean that it will stick around for years to come? Are we taking bets?
Quote from: Hop Bomb on February 05, 2014, 06:27:57 PM
Its been a thing since 2010 (perhaps even earlier?). Just gaining popularity now with breweries looking for something new I guess. I think the beer title is a total joke & needs a more fitting name like India Dark Ale or Cascadian Dark Ale. Its a lovely beer when its done right. Brewed wrong & you just have an american stout. Here to stay I would say.
Stone Sublimely Self Righteous premièred in 2007; that was the first widely distributed Black IPA in the US, afaik.
Beer Advocate calls them "American Black Ale" to avoid the whole Vermont v Oregon throwdown. Though "hoppy porter" works, too.
Given that at least 3 Irish breweries I know of are making one, I'd say it's sticking around.
Quote from: Eoin on February 06, 2014, 09:32:01 AM
The problem mainly is that the category title is an oxymoron,
You mean like dunkelweiss ("dark white")?
(I'd love to claim credit for this observation, but the nod goes to Beer Nut John.)
'American Black Ale' is starting to take off as a description here in London.
Also some micros here, that make so-called Black IPAs don't label them as such.
What's people's issue with the Black IPA name, I've never heard any one complaining about American India Pale Ale - which makes the same amount of sense. Personally, I like it that it doesn't make literal sense. :)
I think Black IPAs will be around for as long as the new wave of hipster hops are popular. Not so long ago hops with big exotic fruity flavours were considered objectionable. So, the bigger question is: are the likes of Citra, Nelson Sauvin, Soriachi Ace etc. a fad? If they stick around I think we can expect to see people continuing to brew darker, hop forward beers with them.
Interestingly enough, Raven is the one craft beer that all non beer geeks I've shown it to has responded to very positively.
Quote from: mr happy on February 06, 2014, 10:36:08 AM
What's people's issue with the Black IPA name, I've never heard any one complaining about American India Pale Ale - which makes the same amount of sense. Personally, I like it that it doesn't make literal sense. :)
It's hard for a home brewer to get the India bit right! You'd have to send the beer on a boat to India to be true to style :P At least we have control over the colour, and Black couldn't be further from pale!
@mr h, Where do you get the Raven, I couldn't see it in Bradleys the last night I visited :(
Hoppy porter though? Surely thats American stout territory then or even American brown if its not black? For me I think there shouldnt be any roast in it. Carafa should be cold steeped & not mashed so you avoid all roasty extraction. Re: the name - I know its total bollix arguing over it but I do think the Americans missed a trick by not going with something solid for a name seeing as they invented that style.
Delighted to say I brewed my own Cascadian Dark Ale recipe at Galway Bay a few weeks back. 7.5kg of carafa 3 cold steeped in my own mash tun & added to the boil (500 litres). 1.5kg of mosaic for 30 min whirlpool steep & 5g p/l for dry hop. Its dark but not black. No roast in there at all - nice & fruity. Its going to keg & cask tomorrow so should be in their bars next week hopefully. (It'll be keg & cask conditioned as they dont have a way of force carbing the pilot brews yet so hopefully it carbs up okay) Another hipster beer with hipster hops brewed by a beardy rocker! Par for the course these days ;D
Quote from: Tubomyces on February 06, 2014, 11:44:00 AM
Quote from: SlugTrap on February 06, 2014, 09:55:01 AM
You mean like dunkelweiss ("dark white")?
(I'd love to claim credit for this observation, but the nod goes to Beer Nut John.)
The weiss there is more to do with wheat that white, and non German speakers making mistakes with weizen/weiss etc.
In German it's actually called Dunkel Weizen, as Tube says there are a lot of stupid things being done in the name of "weiss" all that means is white. It's Weizenbier, called weissbier also, but the style is Weizenbier and that means wheat beer.
They usually have Raven in bradleys or carry out on bandon road. It's not cheap though.
Common the lot of ye!
Have I not bored you all with tales of when I lived in Schwabia?? (Southern Germany)
Wheat is Weizen (Note the capital letter as its a noun)
White is weiβ (Note small w and the beta (this letter of the alphabet is called Eszett))
Hefe is German for Yeast. Dunkel is dark so no oxymoron here!
Quote from: Garry on February 06, 2014, 10:57:13 AM@mr h, Where do you get the Raven, I couldn't see it in Bradleys the last night I visited :(
Carry out Douglas Road has it, along with Jaipur and Chiron
Quote from: Tubomyces on February 06, 2014, 11:44:00 AM
The weiss there is more to do with wheat that white, and non German speakers making mistakes with weizen/weiss etc.
Not how I heard it - "weiss" is descriptive of how wheat beers (http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/weissbier.html) look, thus the name in German.
Quote from: Eoin on February 06, 2014, 12:32:47 PM
In German it's actually called Dunkel Weizen, as Tube says there are a lot of stupid things being done in the name of "weiss" all that means is white. It's Weizenbier, called weissbier also, but the style is Weizenbier and that means wheat beer.
Stupid or not, there are lots (http://www.hacker-pschorr.de/de-DE/unsere-biere/dunkle-weisse) and lots (http://www.andechs.de/en/the-monastery-brewery/a-delight-for-body-and-soul-andechs-beer-specialities/andechser-weissbier-dunkel.html) and lots (http://www.franziskaner-weissbier.de/franziskaner-weissbiere/hefe-dunkel) of German-made dark wheat beers labelled Dunkel (or Dunkle) Weiss.
Quote from: SlugTrap on February 07, 2014, 12:06:05 PM
Stupid or not, there are lots (http://www.hacker-pschorr.de/de-DE/unsere-biere/dunkle-weisse) and lots (http://www.andechs.de/en/the-monastery-brewery/a-delight-for-body-and-soul-andechs-beer-specialities/andechser-weissbier-dunkel.html) and lots (http://www.franziskaner-weissbier.de/franziskaner-weissbiere/hefe-dunkel) of German-made dark wheat beers labelled Dunkel (or Dunkle) Weiss.
You calling me stupid? >:(
"Dunkel is dark so no oxymoron here!"
You calling me a moron? ???
I can see some boys need to get their legs broken :P
Quote from: Dunkel on February 07, 2014, 12:21:34 PM
Quote from: SlugTrap on February 07, 2014, 12:06:05 PM
Stupid or not, there are lots (http://www.hacker-pschorr.de/de-DE/unsere-biere/dunkle-weisse) and lots (http://www.andechs.de/en/the-monastery-brewery/a-delight-for-body-and-soul-andechs-beer-specialities/andechser-weissbier-dunkel.html) and lots (http://www.franziskaner-weissbier.de/franziskaner-weissbiere/hefe-dunkel) of German-made dark wheat beers labelled Dunkel (or Dunkle) Weiss.
You calling me stupid? >:(
"Dunkel is dark so no oxymoron here!"
You calling me a moron? ???
I can see some boys need to get their legs broken :P
Apparently an 8 sided moron....
Quote from: SlugTrap on February 07, 2014, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: Tubomyces on February 06, 2014, 11:44:00 AM
The weiss there is more to do with wheat that white, and non German speakers making mistakes with weizen/weiss etc.
Not how I heard it - "weiss" is descriptive of how wheat beers (http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/weissbier.html) look, thus the name in German.
Quote from: Eoin on February 06, 2014, 12:32:47 PM
In German it's actually called Dunkel Weizen, as Tube says there are a lot of stupid things being done in the name of "weiss" all that means is white. It's Weizenbier, called weissbier also, but the style is Weizenbier and that means wheat beer.
Stupid or not, there are lots (http://www.hacker-pschorr.de/de-DE/unsere-biere/dunkle-weisse) and lots (http://www.andechs.de/en/the-monastery-brewery/a-delight-for-body-and-soul-andechs-beer-specialities/andechser-weissbier-dunkel.html) and lots (http://www.franziskaner-weissbier.de/franziskaner-weissbiere/hefe-dunkel) of German-made dark wheat beers labelled Dunkel (or Dunkle) Weiss.
Do you speak German?
For what it's worth I see that Franziskaner label their dunkel: Franziskaner Hefe-Weissbier Dunkel (http://www.franziskaner-weissbier.de/franziskaner-weissbiere/hefe-dunkel), on their German language website.
Quote from: mr happy on February 07, 2014, 01:35:46 PM
For what it's worth I see that Franziskaner label their dunkel: Franziskaner Hefe-Weissbier Dunkel (http://www.franziskaner-weissbier.de/franziskaner-weissbiere/hefe-dunkel), on their German language website.
Yes, I saw the same.
That wasn't my question, I just wonder if someone quoting a German website actually understands what they've posted or if they are simply getting a hit in a foreign language and claiming that they understand it.
Weissbier to me is more of a colloquial name down South for a Weizen, but yeah it's on the labels so fair enough. Whilst I lived there (admittedly not down in the backward South) it was always referred to as Dunkel Weizen.
Quote from: Eoin on February 07, 2014, 02:13:34 PM
That wasn't my question, I just wonder if someone quoting a German website actually understands what they've posted or if they are simply getting a hit in a foreign language and claiming that they understand it.
I only claim to know the history (http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/weissbier.html):
"Until the beginning of the 16th century... any beer that turned out to be pale was called Weissbier simply for its color ("weiss" means white in German, "bier" means beer). In the Middle Ages, therefore, it did not matter if a Weissbier was based on barley malt or wheat malt, nor did it matter if it was an ale or a lager. With the technological innovation of pale malt in the 19th century, the blond lagers, the Bavarian Helles and the Pils/Pilsener emerged. It was around that time that the name Weissbier became reserved exclusively for wheat ales." Thus, nearly all the examples of Dunkelweizen in the BJCP guidelines (http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style15.php) use "weiss" not "weizen" in the name.
My original point (to get the thread back on topic) was that "Black IPA" is not a uniquely dumb label:
"Because of this odd history of the terms Weissbier and Weizenbier, Bavarians are quite comfortable with the seeming contradiction of naming a very dark Weizenbier a Schwarze Weisse (a "black white one").
Ah beer style naming. Bless.
While we are at it, anyone have a recipe for a Pale Stout ?
I'll see your American website and raise you a German Wiki.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weizenbier
Als Weizenbier oder auch Weißbier (in Österreich, Altbayern und Mark Brandenburg) werden Biere bezeichnet, die mit Weizen hergestellt werden. Weitere Bezeichnungen sind Weizen, Weißes und Weiße. ,,Weizen" und ,,weiß" besitzen denselben etymologischen Ursprung. Weizenbiere werden meist obergärig gebraut.
Now my translation of that is the following:
Known as Weizenbier or also Weissbier (in Austria, old Bavaria and Mark Brandenburg).......You can run the rest through an online translator.
The Americans spread a lot of misinformation about the old country when they get to talking crap over a beer.
On a seperate note Will, the S-tzet or scharfes S was done away with in the Duden about 95, so it's no longer valid in official German. They wanted to standardise for the internet and international communications.
Quote from: Eoin on February 07, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
On a seperate note Will, the S-tzet or scharfes S was done away with in the Duden about 95, so it's no longer valid in official German. They wanted to standardise for the internet and international communications.
Ah but I was talking about Schwabia. They have there own words and dialects that other germans cannot understand. They still miss the old King of the Schwabes (Schwabia ceased to exist in the early 1800s - they do have long memories)
So they are hardly going to follow some new dictat issued in 1995!
They even turned the telly off when germany was playing an international (TRUE)
I lived almost ten years in Germany, up North. I have a few good friends from Schwabenland, woisste.
South Germans are funny...
Sent from my HTC One
I don't speak German (and never claimed to, nor do I consider Horst Dornbusch to be an authority ): but the Collins online dictionary tells me
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/german-english/weiss?showCookiePolicy=true
weiss means white
and
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/german-english/weizen?showCookiePolicy=true
weizen means wheat.
Now, I appreciate that weissbier might mean wheat beer, and that weizen and weiss might be etymologically cognate (as are white and wheat) but weiss on it's own seems to be white, not wheat. Which to me, is not so different to Black IPA. IPA on it's own is a pale hoppy ale, but Black IPA is a dark hoppy ale. Same as a Dunkel Weissbier being a Dark wheat beer, not a dark white beer.
Quote from: Eoin on February 07, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
I'll see your American website and raise you a German Wiki.
The Americans spread a lot of misinformation about the old country when they get to talking crap over a beer.
Sure - expect the website I cited is written by German breweries (http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/about.html), which explains why it's partly in German (http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/rate_card.html#DE).
Your source, meanwhile, mentions that Weizen is Weiss in Brandenburg, too - because it's not "Berliner Weizen," right?
So it sounds like "weiss" for wheat beers is definitely a valid thing.
But, you know, that could just be an American spreading misinformation. ;) :P
I've not looked into it in a great deal of detail myself but I'd understood that the German Beer Institute was primarily driven by Horst Dornbusch and that the likes of Ron Pattinson have, at a minimum, thrown some of what he has to say into question.
Take this article (http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/publications/the-new-brewer/online-extras/show?title=style-spotlight-bohemian-dunkel) about the Tmavý Ležák, at the U Fleku brewery in Prague - for some bizzare reason Tmavý Ležák is rechristened Bohemian Dunkel(???) Great recipe though!
Talking of which, thought this was pretty interesting in this context of the usage of the term "weissbier": Broyhan, a (northern) German beer, described as a weissbier despite not necessarily containing any wheat:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ie/2010/07/broyhan-recipe.html
Might actually try brewing this once I get my hands on the Vintage Beers book, a gose with spices instead of salt, yay!
Quote from: TheSumOfAllBeers on February 07, 2014, 03:26:20 PM
Ah beer style naming. Bless.
While we are at it, anyone have a recipe for a Pale Stout ?
http://www.durhambrewery.co.uk/ (http://www.durhambrewery.co.uk/3327)
http://broadfordbrewer.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/the-durham-brewery-white-stout/ (http://broadfordbrewer.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/the-durham-brewery-white-stout/)
"White Stout is the ultimate beer in our "White Range". While the word "stout" has come to mean a dark beer, the original meaning was strong and true. Before the porter brewers commandeered the word to mean a stout, or strong, porter it referred to any strong beer.
We have rehabilitated and improved the genre. White Stout is a very pale, full bodied, strong beer. American columbus hops are used throughout to give massive floral and resinous character. A pale body supports perfumy, spicy hop flavours and aromas. Intense bitterness is balanced by forest fruits and mango.
At a strength of 7.2% this is a true stout. Indeed, few modern stouts of any colour are true to the word for strong."
Black Ipa's, White Stout, it will be pink next...
http://www.silly-beer.com/p_pink_en.htm
Quote from: CH on February 08, 2014, 11:42:43 PM
Black Ipa's, White Stout, it will be pink next...
http://www.silly-beer.com/p_pink_en.htm
And people say there's no such thing as a bad Belgian beer. :o
I'm still living in Seattle and I'm not seeing as many Black IPAs as I did last year. The trend here is primarily imperials, porters and sours (eek).
On Friday I had two beers on the trot that were some of the worst I've had in almost ten years of living here. One was an amber that was insanely hoppy (I like hoppy beers but this was poor) and completely unbalanced. The other was a brown that suffered from pretty much the same fate + tannins.
There's a gold rush of breweries opening around here but unfortunately not everyone has the skills and bad beers are starting to appear...
Ahaa! so shit brewers cover lovely malts with shed loads of hops, who knew! ;)