National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Ijerry on February 12, 2014, 08:01:11 AM

Title: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 12, 2014, 08:01:11 AM
Hi I got a  braumeister recently and I brewed a wheat beer.

The resulting beer
Has good head but weakened taste.
There is also a slight sour taste.

I only compensated for evaporated water at end of boil.

Was the grist fine enough ?


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 12, 2014, 11:39:45 AM
Hi welcome to the club. You need to give us more info. Sour could be an infection. Weak might be an incomplete conversion of the mash. :)
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Will_D on February 12, 2014, 11:56:42 AM
Sour can also come from starch (as in using unmalted wheat in a Belgian sour)

Starch is converted to sugars in the mash. If you didn't mash efficiently then that might explain the sourness.

Lack of body is also a sign of incomplete mashing. Maybe you were a bit too low temperature and not long enough.

As Dempsey says give us some info and we should be able to help.

The Braumeister is a very efficient system.
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ciderhead on February 12, 2014, 12:08:14 PM
Hello for your first post, introduce yourself. ;)

Not many have them here but basic of brewing still apply, but you would need to provide more detail.

You may also be interested to know there is a new dedicated braumeister forum now as well.

https://forum.braumeisters.net/
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 12, 2014, 03:56:23 PM
The braumeister comes with defaults for a wheat beer

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/12/da4ypy7e.jpg)


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 12, 2014, 03:56:40 PM
The braumeister comes with defaults for a wheat beer




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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 12, 2014, 04:00:07 PM
Ok, my name is  Gerry, and I am living in Kildare. I love my beer. I have invested in a 20l braumeister recently 2 speidel fermentation drums.


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: donnchadhc on February 12, 2014, 04:18:28 PM
Slight sour taste and weakened body sounds like a fermentation infection. Recipe looks spot on. The mash schedule is mad, but good

Can you describe the sour taste? Is it vinegary? What was the best before date on the yeast?

Sanitation and cleanliness is the single greatest lesson you'll learn in brewing, you'll spend 70% of your time doing it! Poor sanitation is the most likely cause of any brewer losing a batch (I'd say 95% of bad batches are due to infection) You need to be quite ADD about it.

Read up on the basics outside of the braumeister instructions, I'd recommend How To Brew by John Palmer starting out. Also, if you can make one of the meets it can be quite helpful, especially when you can see what can be produced!

Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Tom on February 12, 2014, 04:22:49 PM
Aye, who do we know in Kildare who does meets though?
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 12, 2014, 04:26:55 PM
Hi donnchadhc ,

Thanks for help. Ian happy with sanitation methods. I used the star product from States.

What's your opinion on the emergency late addition of boiled water.


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 12, 2014, 04:28:22 PM
Or Dub , Tom , I work daily in Dublin.


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: donnchadhc on February 12, 2014, 07:00:47 PM
No problem with late addition of water, do it myself. Take a bottle it to a meet and let others taste it. It's the only way to know for sure. It's sounds like a fermentation issue though, which happens, just unfortunate it happened on your first brew. What temp was fermentation?
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Will_D on February 12, 2014, 07:49:10 PM
Don't know where they get that mash schedule!

The two important staeps are:

15 mins @ 63C [Comment:  Will only just start to make mono and di-saccarides]

35 mins @ 73C [Comment: Will not produce fermentables just long chain non-fermentables]

Most of the Weizen recipes I have seen or brewed do a 90 min mash @ 65C

Your BM supplied schedule will leave a lot of starch and few fermentables.

Do you know about the Iodine "Starch Conversion" test?

This shows you that you have converted all the starch ( Bottle of "Tincture Iodine" from Chemist, mix a drop with a few drops of wort from mash tun. If it turns blue then still starch, stays brown then complete conversion)

Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 12, 2014, 08:34:58 PM
Oh and don't put the iodine sample back in the wort. ??? Just saying like. I am north Kildare,Celbridge and Brenmurph is Kildare town.
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 12, 2014, 09:40:47 PM
Between kilcullen / Athy


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 12, 2014, 10:20:49 PM
Have you being brewing much. Braumeister is a nice piece of kit so you should be able to get good repeatable beers from it. :)
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ciderhead on February 12, 2014, 10:41:33 PM
I have a few questions
Did you do a dummy boil with water before doing your first beer in the BM?
What did you clean your bottles with? I see you sanitised with SS
What was the date on the yeast? in other words was it fresh?
Did you aerate your wort.
What did you ferment in? what was that cleaned with.
What temp did you ferment at, was it constant?
How would you describe the fermentation? how long did it take to start? was it active bubbling or a plopper?
Any funky smell or strange looking stuff when fermenting?

Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 12, 2014, 11:07:45 PM
Ha haa jesus CH are you sure your not a Lawyer :D
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ciderhead on February 12, 2014, 11:58:50 PM
I ask because I care :P
Braumeisters are the rolls royce for homebrewers, no reason why the wheel should have fallen off Gerrys wagon.
Have you done a second brew yet Gerry?
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 07:46:16 AM
Hi CH

Boil water /yes. My water is v Limey

I did sterilised bottles in oven. Porceline tops in starane bottles not used before.

Yeast bb end 14

Did not aerate wort

Speidel 30l tank /yes ss


I have  an electrim probe(with no visual temp markings on it...Grrrrr).  The night I fermented It said factory default 24C so took it at its word had not tested it before fermenting ......

. (Last night... I ran a little test .... I left it in 4litre jug of water .. This morn I measured temp ....... 34C) Too high? Prob too high as ye guys pointed out





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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 07:53:24 AM
I did not open during fermentation . Gave it 5 days till all bubbling ended

Smelled inside the tank
Slightl tart. And take your breath away (co2 perhaps)

In the solution there was   
Beer / sediment/  and some white floaters.

Added back in my litre of un fermented wort


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 07:57:18 AM
No second brew done yet ... ?  What about the grist size ?

Any internet pics that can help identify "right crush"


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 07:59:30 AM
On the up side the BM. Worked a charm.

No sparaging done how ever ?





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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 08:05:56 AM
Did some brewing years ago


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Will_D on February 13, 2014, 10:08:50 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that mash schedule is wrong?

Just looked at the BM recipe pages and all but 2 have "sensible mashes" typicalyl 70 mins split between the 63C and 72C (beta and alpha) temps.

e.g. Pilsner:
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/pilsner-recipe.html (http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/pilsner-recipe.html)

The 2 profiles I disagree with? The 2 wheat beers!
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ciderhead on February 13, 2014, 10:59:46 AM
You are close Gerry but something is catching you when it comes to fermentation.
Temp is ideally 20 Degrees for fermentation +/- 2.
Try another non wheat beer, something as simple as a basic pale ale to cut your teeth on.
What are you milling with?
Consider buying some crushed grain from HBC in Mountmellick
Could I suggest you contact our expert in Kildare, Brenmurph and see when he is doing his next brew so that you could shadow?
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 13, 2014, 12:28:03 PM
South Kildare has hard water afaik so if you are planning pale style beers then you best need to do something with your water. Do you have ph strips or a ph meter. That hard water is going to knock your desired mash ph of 5.2 so your extract from your mash is going to be effected as well as pulling tannins and such that you don't want. :)
oh and Will-D is right about the odd mash temp schedule  ???
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Partridge9 on February 13, 2014, 01:19:50 PM
Quote from: Will_D on February 13, 2014, 10:08:50 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that mash schedule is wrong?

Just looked at the BM recipe pages and all but 2 have "sensible mashes" typicalyl 70 mins split between the 63C and 72C (beta and alpha) temps.

e.g. Pilsner:
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/pilsner-recipe.html (http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/pilsner-recipe.html)

The 2 profiles I disagree with? The 2 wheat beers!

As will sayes  - That mash schedule looks off

With that machine steps are very easy, so use them !

Mash in at 40c

15 mins @ 43c
05 mins @ 52c
25 mins @ 62c
25 mins @ 70c
10 mins @ 76c

Perfect results everytime !
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: donnchadhc on February 13, 2014, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 07:53:24 AM
Added back in my litre of un fermented wort

What was the reason for this? Was it for Carbonation purposes? When did you do it and how was it stored?

Could be a source of infection.
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 02:31:15 PM
As per recipe:


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 02:32:25 PM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/13/hu7a3yvu.jpg)


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: donnchadhc on February 13, 2014, 03:22:21 PM
They do that to prime the fermented wort for carbonation. It's the old German way of doing it (is it called Krausening?). Much easier to just use sugar to prime to be honest. If the container with the frozen wort is not sterile or air tight that could be a potential area where this problem arose.
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 06:17:22 PM
What about boiling the hardness from the water ?


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 13, 2014, 06:17:59 PM
Looks like I can make Hugh improvements on next batch


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 13, 2014, 06:44:38 PM
You can get a salifert carbonate test kit used for testing fish tank water.http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1311.R4.TR8.TRC1.A0.H1.Xsalifert&_nkw=salifert+test+kit&_sacat=0&_from=R40
they are handy for testing how much Caco3 is in your water. After that you can treat your water to adjust it to suit the type of beer you are going to brew. :)
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Will_D on February 13, 2014, 07:42:36 PM
This is drifting way OT.

Water carbonate levels are NOT responsible for the original problem description.

The answer lies in the MASH :-*
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: donnchadhc on February 13, 2014, 08:14:34 PM
Sourness, surely that's a fermentation issue?
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 13, 2014, 08:20:26 PM
And if he brought tannins over from the mash with crappy water they will also be sour. We don't know what sour he is describing. :)
Title: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: donnchadhc on February 13, 2014, 09:43:14 PM
Oh and Jerry, don't worry about the conversation, this is just beer geeks doing what we do best 😃

(Talking shit 😉 )
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ciderhead on February 13, 2014, 10:13:13 PM
Quote from: donnchadhc on February 13, 2014, 08:14:34 PM
Sourness, surely that's a fermentation issue?

+1
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 14, 2014, 05:43:45 PM
I guess brew days are week end days ... Do you guys have a schedule ?


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 14, 2014, 05:47:16 PM
We had a brew day up here in Lucan a few weeks ago and another will be coming up soon.
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 14, 2014, 06:12:45 PM
Ph meter what do you guys recommend ?


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 14, 2014, 06:13:39 PM
How often are the brew days


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 14, 2014, 06:38:11 PM
Keep an eye on the local clubs listings. you have http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/board,20.0.html and http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/board,18.0.html. And if you want to head up to Dublin on usually a Sunday http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/board,16.0.html.
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: DEMPSEY on February 14, 2014, 06:40:19 PM
PH meter can be tricky. Some report them as good and bad. I have recently bought one but have not used it yet so cannot comment. ::)
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: johnrm on February 14, 2014, 07:48:36 PM
How did you hear of the NHC Gerry?
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 15, 2014, 07:30:08 AM
Tapatalk search on brewing


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: johnrm on February 16, 2014, 03:03:26 AM
Did that make you feel good? You know, knowing there was someone nearby, maybe next door, that might be able to help you with your brewing.
Just curious.
Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Ijerry on February 20, 2014, 10:23:52 AM
Very happy a lot of resources out there ?

How do I find some one to shadow for a day ?


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Title: Re: Braumeiater: first batch: weak tasting ?
Post by: Will_D on February 20, 2014, 10:52:36 AM
Where are you based?

Have a look here:

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/board,49.0.html

Find a local group near you and get chatting