Made my spunding gauge as you can see.
What I'm using it for: I brewed a pils of sorts a week ago. It takes 2.5 weeks for these to ferment out fully, but after a week I transferred it to the corny where it will finish fermenting under pressure, approx 1 bar. It's pressure it will create itself.
I have no automatic release valve so every day I'll check and if we're a bit above 1 bar I'll let off some using the corny's pressure release valve.
What are the advantages of fermenting under pressure.
Is it faster?
I like. It would be nice to have a settable pressure relief valve.
Do you run the risk of overcarbing the beer if the pressure increases substantially and you degas the headspace?
QuoteWhat are the advantages of fermenting under pressure.
Is it faster?
Your beer will be fully carbonated and ready to drink as soon as your fermentation ends up.
@Tube: Is that your plan?
Thanks for the info.
I'm still struggling with the basics so won't be making any advanced moves like this in the near future .
QuoteThanks for the info.
I'm still struggling with the basics so won't be making any advanced moves like this in the near future .
If you will, remember to not exceed 15 psi :P
I secondary all my beers in 5 gallon sealed drums. The drums hold about 5 r 6 psi. The beer comes out reasonably carbonated. Because I let my beer secondary / condition in sealed drums I dont keg till the beer is clear completly.
I cool or chill the drum and siphon into my corneys and I now have drinking ales straight away.
Second benefit if you want well carbonated beers then very little force conditioning is needed. If I want high carbonation my pre carbonated beers will be very fizzy after a week in cold at 15-20 psi.
A side benefit is that your beer alweays has a great protective blanket of co2 even when transferring because as you siphon some co2 escapes develloping a nice co2 layer as you are transferring.
Hope this helps
regards brendan
This like like putting a live chicken in the oven and turning on the gas, when its cooked picking bits off, no thanks. I prefer my birds plucked and clean ;)
That valve looks familiar, bit droopy though luv ;)
QuoteNo, it's not.
It has been syphoned off the yeast in the bucket into the corny. So comparatively speaking there's feck all yeast there.
And when it's done fermenting it goes into another corny for lagering.
so whats the advantage, there has to be more than just saving gas?
Quote
so whats the advantage, there has to be more than just saving gas?
In case of lagers you can ferment them in higher temperature then usual without getting unwanted esters.
Because of that pressure fermentation is very popular in commercial breweries.
I read in banforths book that loads of commercials brew under pressure. I also see the conical on mybeer and wine boasts their conical ferments under pressure and serves if necessary from the conical (after dumping the yeast)
anyway Im a fan of pressure fermenting ( secondary) for reasons stated earlier
Another reason I have heard from various small craft breweries is:
We don't like to pump the beer. An impellor pump is not considered good for our beer. As we don't have gravity assist we like to secondary under pressure so the beer "moves itself"
Btw: Did you know that in an empty G. or H. keg there is about 3 bar of mixed gas? 3 bar * 50 litres = 150 Litres of gas at STP!
I read somewhere that certain yeasts dont respond well to pressure. Its fine at first but as the yeast multiplies the new yeast can mutate and produce off flavours.
Depends on the yeast i suppose.
This post emphasises the mystery, science and not least the ART of brewing. The more we experiment, the more we debate, the more we taste we fine out so much about the complexity of this wonderful product and the multiple variables involved.
Would be great to find out more about which variety of yeast may be risky. I would be willing to believe that there may be a case of truth here, however is it because the beer may be left on the yeast under a certain pressure for too long? does this not mean the yeast will throw an off if it is bottle conditioned?
Personally Ive had most of my beers fermented under 5-6psi and me , lucan brewers and my blind tasters havnt reported off flavours.
Anyway for me end result is a tasty beer, not necessarily a competition winning beer that is designed and brewed with beersmith software but one I can sit back with and exclaim, "isnt this barley, potato and lemon beer, only gorgeous!" After all an off flavour for one is a nice flavour for another, think belgian wild fermented beers these are Putrid to many if not most people and competition winners to others. Hope this debate goes on a bit longer, its clear that fermenting under pressure is very common among commercial, craft and homebrewers.
Quoteits clear that fermenting under pressure is very common among commercial, craft and homebrewers.
5 years brewing and 3 years AG and this is the first serious detailed info, I have come across :)
We would all benefit from more brew days where people can have a good close look at how each other brew, what gear or lack of gear we use and how the beer tastes.
As A club we dont meet that often, my mother goes to age active 3 x week, my mate goes to GAA 4 times a week, my brother plays golf 3 times a week....we brewers ( excluding me) meet up once a month and dont get involved enough in brewing and tasting and sharing the numerous stories, tips, tricks and ideas that makes this hobby so enjoyable and mind stimulating. I think most people know Im an experimenter, I break the rules.
I found out by trial, error and purley by practicality that brewing in secondary under its own co2 has numerous advantages not least the beer stays fresher.
And in line with ciders comment above, we can learn something new to try every day.......even if weve been brewing for 5 years. My first brew was a kwoffit Kit in 1982.yes I said nineteen eighty two.......and it went down very well indeed as the lads from work would verify every friday night
I have to say that was pre NHC and I never would have taken years to come across fermenting under pressure if it wasnt for the NHC ;D
I think its only if you ferment under pressure from the very beginning. The second and third "generations" (within the same batch) of this pressurised yeast will be ok but subsequent "generations" MAY be affected. If fermenting under persdure in a secondary you should be ok as this yeast has grown under normal conitions and the next few "generations" are the first under pressure.
There is also discussions about the shape of fermentors affecting the yeast. A tall narrow fermentor will have greater pressure on the bottom than a shallow wide one. This is only a potential issue at a commercial scale though. Our 20 - 50L wont create that much pressure.
Its true what you say though. An off flavour to one person is interesting and new to the next. As long as the beer tastes good........
I love the idea, but love the simplicity of setting a pressure and so self-regulate.
I was googling for them today...
http://www.flowsafe.com/Products/PressureReliefValves/tabid/60/Default.aspx
I showed ciderhead my pressure relief from my 1982 rotakeg. A brass cylinder and piston, 1 rubber o ring and a ss spring. 30 years later still perfect still functioning, adjustable from 1-8 psi.
Whats become of the world? are we really progressing?
They changed some years ago to a stub embedded in the plastic barrel cap. The stub has a rubber band ( im sure loads of you know the one I mean). The rubber band changes its tolerance whether its room temp or out in shed in the cold, in fact when its cold the band completly loses its elasticity and leaks all the co2 out. I also showed ciderhead that today.
Bring back the 80's and the Kwoffit Kits, they ( or the old brass pressure valves) never failed!
Based on the principle of the Old brass rotakeg pressure release valve a simple pressure valve can be made from a piexe of plastic tube, a small plastic syringe and a weight (e.g a big steel nut) or an elastic band to act as adjustable pressure regulator.
depends whether one wants to spend a small fortune on a sophisticated device or use a simple principle of a set weight per area on a piston and the piston is driven by the pressure you want to regulate!
The modern rotakeg (plastic keg) pressure valve is simple but un reliable and ineffective, the old brass one from 1982 could not be engineered better to this day, it was impossible to break down, was failsafe by nature the only wearable part was a 10 cent o-ring and the principle was incredible simple asnd effective.
heres a homemade pressure valve.
(//www.personaltraining.ie/pt/valve.jpg)
1 roof bolt
I small o ring
1 larger o ring
2 expansion springs
1 cable tie
I piece of 8 r 10 ml pipe in plastic or copper
Features:
simple,
effective
reliable
adjustable
cheap
easy to replace if u break it or lose it
shipping cost free!
and no I didnt find it on the net, its here beside me and I have a few variations of it including the syringe mentioned in earlier post
ok now I feel like a right fukin idiot
When I received my gauge for my cornies to test pressure
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1359385441/13#13
one of these came with it, I didn't know what it was and threw it in the shed, all this talk of spunding got me thinking what is that?
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/image_zpsc7f00db9.jpg)
(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj605/joctcl/image_zpsb739311c.jpg)
I hooked it up to my gas and my gauge and sure enough was able to adjust it up an down to vary pressure DoooH.
Sometimes what you want is right under your nose
QuoteI was googling for them today...
http://www.flowsafe.com/Products/PressureReliefValves/tabid/60/Default.aspx
these seem to be half inch connectors and all high pressure regulators. 15 up to 1000psi.
what pressure do u need to regulate? I can engineer an adjustable brass PR valve for u or Tube for about a fiver. If ur still interested I can bring an example to B&C next week.
If its re this current topic then u would be seeking a 1psi up to maybe 10 psi for keg conditioning and probably higher for force carbonating but I dont thing a 15 -1000 PR valve will offer the fine adjustment and a minimum of 15 is not great. I can produce a PR range of say 1 psi up to 20 psi.
Quoteok now I feel like a right fukin idiot
When I received my gauge for my cornies to test pressure
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1359385441/13#13
one of these came with it, I didn't know what it was and threw it in the shed, all this talk of spunding got me thinking what is that?
I hooked it up to my gas and my gauge and sure enough was able to adjust it up an down to vary pressure DoooH.
Sometimes what you want is right under your nose
is that a flow regulator, pressure regulator or a pressure relief valve?
QuoteWould be interested Bren, but B&C is going to be flat out. Bring it to Liffey Brewers meet and we can have a look in peace.
no worries.. wudnt like to see yis buyin and shipping a valve that prob wont work for yis. If ur goin to control pressure relief I'd suggest a short range of adjustment for accuracy.
The valve is available from any plumbing suppliers, u just change the spring to reengineer it for the range u need...for the purpose u need. I have dozens of appropriate springs. Tiny little device. Ive 6 r 7 different PR valves Ill show u some day. did u see the home made one in the pic i posted?
Its one of these
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Air-Regulator-0-30-psi-2-bar-max-pressure-special-Airbrush-1-4-Bsp-ports-b617-/121040398913?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c2e91ea41#ht_1275wt_1154
they screwed up my order to start with and threw it in as a sweetener and obviously I didn't realise what it was, I wouldn't pay that for it but just checked between o and 15 psi and it works fine, blowing off through the switch at the dialled pressure.
I still think I prefer your pen ;D
QuoteIts one of these
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Air-Regulator-0-30-psi-2-bar-max-pressure-special-Airbrush-1-4-Bsp-ports-b617-/121040398913?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c2e91ea41#ht_1275wt_1154
they screwed up my order to start with and obviously threw it in as a sweetener and obviously I didn't realise what it was, I wouldn't pay that for it but just checked between o and 15 psi and it works fine, blowing off through the switch at the dialled pressure.
I still think I prefer your pen ;D
its actually a siphon tube section! that costs about 10 cent to make and works perfect!1- 15psi comfortably or more an if u want it on the corny keg u just attach with a small jubilee to the braided hose coming off the corny connector.
QuoteBren, I saw your pic. Need to be able to finely adjust pressure tho!
Quoteok now I feel like a right fukin idiot
That's a pressure reducing valve. My central heating system has one, but it's not the same thing as a pressure relief valve.
I think we need a pressure relief seminar..........theres a slight difference between a co2 reg, a PR valve and a flow control valve...someone will have an accident one day!
Tube ur central heating has a PR valve with a red or blue cap on it its set to either 3 or 6 bar, that valve is fully adjustable and if spring is replaced can be given any range for any purpose. But as cider says my pen is a way better and cheaper "pressure relief / control device! and is fully and finely adjustable in tiny increments of about 1/10 of a psi believe it or not by sliding the orange cable tie a ml or 2...its exceptionally efficient.
QuoteBren, I saw your pic. Need to be able to finely adjust pressure tho!
Quoteok now I feel like a right fukin idiot
That's a pressure reducing valve. My central heating system has one, but it's not the same thing as a pressure relief valve.
I don't care what it is, it works and best of all it was freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Checking net tonight on fermenting under pressure and
Its all about fermenting
1) at higher temperatures
2) Higher gravity beers
The higher prevents pressure prevent the formation of esters and fusel alcohols that might normally appear.
So the big boys do this and dilute back their beer allegedly!
it transpires very high pressures don't suit all yeasts, if fact it puts some under mechanical stress by holding in a lot of CO2, this creates chemical/osmostic stress on the yeast, if you are going to stress the yeast make sure you start with plenty, that's viable, and add nutrient, lack of care will result in the expected under-attenuation not great for harvesting either :(.
in any case we need to get some of this;
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp925.html
Not sure I am brave enough to do in primary but definitely giving secondary a go.
QuoteYeast is killed above 10 psi. Or is it?
15 is the magic number ...
Consider this: Bottle Bombs - What pressure is required to produce one? My guess is that the yeast is active up to and beyond the pressure containable by a capped bottle. Also, we have seen (Posted elsewhere here?) cases where mini-kegs have deformed under pressure.
Surely the pressre at which yeast isaffected depends on the Yeast strain.
QuoteWhere did you get that number?
That's the number I've seen in few places like:
Homebrewtalk (http://www.homebrewtalk.com),
Homebrewersassociation (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12227.0),
Aussiehomebrewer (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/66163-fermenting-under-pressure/)
Well, you can, you just can't measure it with your doo dad.