Does anyone know a handy guide when it comes to using RO water when AG brewing.
Im not 100 positive what values to enter for RO water (jims water calc)...some guides have said 0 for everything on the water treatment calculators.
But someone must have a guide as in RO water....lager..Add salt 1g...gypsum 2 G...epsom 3 g Per 23L
RO water...stout ..Add salt 2g...gysum 3g......chalk..4g per23L
Cheers ???
That's a very interesting question; its one we have been asked by microbreweries here.
I'd be very keen to see what you guys have to say.
The idea is to "putify" the water, and then add chemicals to get the desired profile.
Not sure about RO though?
RO should be very pure water.
Braukaiser has a spreadsheet for water treatment.
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/03/07/brewing-water-spreadheet-update/
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Where do you guys buy your RO water from ? We have a couple of auto shops locally but other than that i can' think of anywhere to get RO or Distilled in any quantity. ;D
Aquarium Shops will do RO in quantity
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Just a bit of background. I have a well as water source... its hard as nails. I had it tested for the main 8 parametres in regards to brewing water.
So when i need to brew a style i simply slot in my values to Jims water treatment calc and hit the style and presto additions sorted.
But when i want to brew lets say a Marzen i cannot modify my well water to match the profile. As part of my house water system the treated softned water runs through a reverse osmosis system 5 filters which goes to drinking water fossit. this RO water according to some info i read if the system is working correctly all values should be 0 due to all minerals removed ect.
So as such im guessing someone has done the hard work and has the values for the additions needed. Im just not 100% sure 0 for all parametres is correct.
BB this is an excellent and simple starting point. I've been finding my pH is still slightly high with this approach but it has still yielded excellent beer. I've started bumping up the acid malt a bit http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460
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BB, you can buy a tds meter on eBay quite cheaply. It'll tell you how efficient your RO unit is. Test a sample before and after and do the maths. They claim to remove 99.something %
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Quote from: Eoin on April 12, 2014, 10:52:54 PM
Aquarium Shops will do RO in quantity
Don't have any locally but i will look after work next week ;)
Tds cheers for the heads up. I had kinda assumed as my filters just replaced the system is up to scratch but that it good piece of kit will save me buying filters when not needed.
When i treat the well water the mash ph is always between 5.2 -5.4 ish i think so im happy with that. I just assumed someone has a spreadsheet with additions for RO water. i find when i read posts about this subject it can be a bit of a mind field so many opinions so a spreadsheet with values would be rock solid and no need to look further unless i wanted to become a water specialist :D
If I were to do a Marzen, this is what I'd target for the mash:
SRM 12
RA 53
ppm
Ca 70
Mg 15 sufficient Ca and Mg to ensure good lager ferm.
Na <30
Chl 70
Sulf 55 C:S ratio in the 1.1 to 1.3 range, balanced to low malty.
So when i add target profile into calc with all values Zero for RO water i got
7.06g epsom salt
3.81g salt
2.46g calcium chloride
1.77g chalk
I just taught these additions a bit much so this is why i want to find spread sheet to confirm
If I were to do a Marzen, this is what I'd target for the mash: This quote and recommendation is from a brewmaster not me !
I have a RO water system that I got from Brenmurph so as my Family and Wife could have nice water for making Tea and Coffee >:D and it just so happens to be useful for my brewing Hobby too ::). I use the software Beersmith and everything works out very easy there for me. I set up the software with my equipment and set up that my water is RO, after that I went through the water profiles listing thet give you from around the world and copied and renamed the ones I needed. I have a Wolstan Nut Brown Ale,a Wolstan Pilsner Lager,a Wolstan AIPA,a Wolstan English IPA,a Wolstan Stout,a Wolstan Vienna Amber. Went through the water profiles of which there are many and now when I am going to brew one of those styles I click the water I want and beersmith lists in my ingredients the various salts to add :). I hit the ph 5.2 bang on :) :).
E.G. Tomorrow I am brewing a Stout and it has listed I need to add,
1.25gr Calcium Chloride,
1.25gr Gypsum(Calcium Sulphate),
1.61gr Baking Soda,
5.63gr Chalk. :)
On my other beers like AIPA it had Salt and Epsom Salt as additions and the great thing about it is if any of the water profiles are not what you want you edit them to suit and then just click when brew recipe is forming.
I have not spent time using beersmith correctly. Setting up profiles ect.
That seems like the way to go I just need to put some time into it.
As it was the first time using RO water it asked for chalk additions. Again on looking up on chalk I found minefield of suggestions. What type chalk do you use or maybe easier way to ask where do you buy it and how is it supplied ? Second how do you add it ? Most say it needs to be dissolved under CO2 pressure or something similar ?
Quote from: Greg2013 on April 12, 2014, 11:33:41 PM
Quote from: Eoin on April 12, 2014, 10:52:54 PM
Aquarium Shops will do RO in quantity
Don't have any locally but i will look after work next week ;)
Petmania or any bigger pet shop would have it.
Petmania Eur 5.00 per 25 litre (bring your own drum)
Anybody any links for water testing kit aimed at brewers? Or is it a case of cobbling it together?
As most of us use aquarium kits (Calcium, Magnessium, Total Hardness (kH) ) you can of course get these in our latest affiliates shoppy:
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,2550.0.html (http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,2550.0.html)
Quote:
Seahorse Aquariums www.seahoursaquariums.com 10% off Valid Membership Card & ID
However the question was about a brew centric water test kit!
So what about an enterprising HB company putting together a 3 box set (like above) of the essentials?
For a good price naturally!
BTW: Sulphate test kits are not used in aquariums and are v. expensive!
Mr Dempsey !
I believe the question about water / liquor can be very technical or simple per /person.
Eg water and liquor are the same thing if your a brewer !. So this proves my taught its a minefield.
People need to ask questions and not be afraid.
To me when i google...best water for beer....comes up with top replies so as a person who is getting into brewing i go....oh....i understand BUT...i dont....i need to ask questions simple or not and the funny thing is for every total silly simple question u ask 100 people go !!!AGGGG thats what it is...i know now but im too embarrassed to ask.
End story is lets keep it simple...and if its not simple ask !
Technically water and liquor are not the same thing.
Water is the stuff that comes out of your tap.
Liquor is the stuff you use to brew, so treated water that comes out of your tap (or not).
A good place to start for water treatment is the NHC wiki
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/wiki/doku.php?id=water_for_brewing
It uses both CRS and DLS for treatment and salt additions.
If you want to know what they contain then here it is,
CRS
The breakdown of CRS,
250ml CRS is,
198ml water,
39ml hydro,
13ml sulphuric
- giving 65ppm cl+ per 1ml/L & 88ppm so4+
DLS
breakdown of what is in DLS,
0.95g/L of DLS adds:
172ppm Calcium Ca
5.2ppm Magnesium Mg
71.5ppm Sodium Na
169ppm Chloride Cl
353ppm Sulphate SO4
Sodium Chloride 19%
Calcium Chloride 13%
Calcium Sulphate 62%
Magnesium Sulphate 5%
Here's an excellent description on what each of the minerals contribute to your beer.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wsawdon/www/water.html
When using RO also be careful of what you're stripping out of the water that your yeast needs, i.e trace levels of zinc, iron etc.
Yeast nutrient or WL servo will help with this.
Try to calculate your residual alkalinity as you really need to keep every stage from mash in through to boil at a ph of around 5.2 and always under 6.0. Sparging with 7.1 RO water will pull out ash from the mash and give you a harsh bitterness from your hops in the boil that's unpleasant.
A.J. deLange is supposedly an authority on acidification of the mash so look up his papers if you can.
http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/AcidifWaterAJD0497.html
Rather than try to create Liquor from scratch with RO plus additions, Dempsey's excllent guide above is much simpler, or simplest of all, Dilute your well water with RO water, depending upon your original water analysis results, you could try 50:50 or 60:40 and if necessary fine tune from there
My water results are
Bicarbonate 257 CaCo3
Calcium 132 mg/L
Chloride 13.66 mg/L
Hardness 343 CaCo3
Magnesium 8.003 mg/L
PH 7
Sodium 9.652
sulphate 32.08 mg/L as SO4
So if i want to make a stout im good as i can add this n that but if i want to make pils i cannot reduce enough even at 50/50 mix so its easier for those type styles to brew with RO water. So i wanted to know is there a table or quick guide that any one can use.
For eg. If i know nothing about water chemistry i can check here and find if i want to brew a stout with RO water all i need to know is
50 litres RO water for stout you add
Calcium Sulphate (as gypsum) 4.1 G
Calcium Chloride (dihydrate): 23.38G
Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts) 5.07 G
Sodium Chloride (common salt): 9.53 G
Calcium Carbonate (as chalk): 4.17 G
50 litres Ro water for Lager add
Calcium Sulphate (as gypsum) 3.34 G
Calcium Chloride (dihydrate): 4.56
Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts) 1.01
Calcium Carbonate (as chalk) 1.25
50 litres RO water for Burton pale Ale add
Calcium Sulphate (as gypsum): 25.77
Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts): 10.14
Sodium Chloride (common salt): 3.81
Calcium Carbonate (as chalk): 1.25
So guys dont need to know chemistry all they need to know is what to buy from brew shop....how much to add and if someone for eg spends allot time trying to find perfect recipe for pliny the elder they can add to the list if using 50 litres RO water...... guys just add this for that type beer
@ donnchadhc i had my well water tested by Fitz Scientific in droghada its the most accurate option in my opinion
I've never seen simpler instructions, +1.
Eventually something you don't have to study for hours or have chemistry degree to understand it.
Quote from: B.B. on April 17, 2014, 11:17:05 PM
@ donnchadhc i had my well water tested by Fitz Scientific in droghada its the most accurate option in my opinion
BB how much did they charge for that and how do you go about getting a sample tested ?
Email enquiry just sent, will see next week if they get back to me, asked for the same stuff to be tested as you got BB ;D
My water is incredibly soft (RO like) I'd be interested in a price of water tests!
Quote from: donnchadhc on April 18, 2014, 03:01:40 PM
My water is incredibly soft (RO like) I'd be interested in a price of water tests!
When they get back to me i will reply here ;D
It's approx 100 Euro. Not cheap but these are the things you have to do for the hobby.
You take sample in bottle and post it up or as I did drive up and hand it in.
I did explain to the lady I payed upstairs in office that allot people homebrewing and it might be a chance for sales rep to make some orders. I gave this forums name.
I'm not type person good for organizing group buys stuff but possible if few got together the price might work out cheaper !
Might be cheaper to drop ph test as it's easy to do yourself. Think 14 Euro per individual test but been a while since i got test.
Hope info helps
100 euro :o Bloody hell that's a bit Irish ::)
14 Euro ish a test isn't bad as there is a bit lab work in it.
But we have come full circle. Brew with RO water and if we had a guide on forum I'd know what mineral s to buy in brewing shop and how much to add.
As meerkats say.....simples :D
Is it something like this you are looking for? You can mix your well water with the RO water and then tweak the salts accordingly
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/#help_Overview
It might not be but I'm not getting in wring side if you !
Tried using that before it's not user friendly
Checked out www.seahorseaquariums.com (there's a typo in the original post with the reference) but I can only find tests for total hardness, pH and Ca, most of the kits are for things brewers wouldn't be interested in, so I can see the reason for WillD's plea for some brewing-centric test kits. I'm guessing there's better kits around but possibly not on that site, can anyone volunteer where they got theirs please? I'd like to be able to test myself over a period of time, just to be sure things are consistent. I have a rainwater butt and spring source I'd also like to test, so a test kit for the relevant components would be great - I'm not a chemist but have access to a lab at work so could do a few tests if they were relatively simple.
You need a kit that tests Gh and Kh. Brewkaiser has some good stuff on it, will explain what Gh and Kh means. Still need to find a kit for bicarbonate sulphate and chloride.
Is there no company out there that sells a complete all in one kit for testing brewing water ? :o
Salifert?
Something like this (http://www.lamotte.com/en/food-beverage/7188-01.html)?
Can be got here (http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/shop/beer/lab-testing-supplies/lamotte-brew-lab-water-analysis-kit-basic.html).
This (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B007A2OKZ2/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?qid=1397909717&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX110_SY165) would do!
"You do have a very convenient source of sodium and chloride: sodium chloride i.e. table salt. Be sure to use kosher or some other form that is not iodized as iodine is a yeast poison."
I did not know this. I have used table salt and have not checked if its iodized or not and i wounder if sea salt is ok.
kosher salt? any jewish shops around?
not where you come from ! ouch
Saxa table salt is non iodised so im ok. Think some add iodine to prevent thyroid problems. If its iodised they need to have iodine listed on ingrediants. did a bit of research as usual.
Lidl have both types of salt, + or - iodine
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Quote from: B.B. on April 24, 2014, 11:14:40 PM
not where you come from ! ouch
Wha? :o Polish and Jewish are best buddies :)
But jewish cuisine seems more brewer friendly, if I think about it now.