National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: HomeBrewWest on May 19, 2014, 05:46:18 PM

Title: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: HomeBrewWest on May 19, 2014, 05:46:18 PM
OK, finally got myself a 20 litre Speidel. Now I wanna make an Erdinger wheat beer clone.

I am thinking:
To make 21 litres

Grains:
- 2.3 kg Weyerman Pale Wheat malt (3 to 5 EBC)
- 2.2 kg Weyerman Bavarian Pilsner malt (3 to 4 EBC)

Mash programme
    50 °C › Start mashing
    52 °C › 0 min
    63 °C › 15 min
    73 °C › 35 min
    78 °C › 15 min
    Boiling › 80min

Hop addition
   20 g Tettnang 4.5% hop pellets › 70 min before end of boil
   10 g Pearle 8.0% hop pellets › 12 min before end of boil

Yeast and fermentation temperature: this is where I'm unsure. I defo want to use a White Labs yeast.

Erdinger is is one of the cleanest tasting hefeweizens, light on the whole banana clove. Its also relatively clear. So the traditional WLP300 may not be the best choice. I do want some banana clove, but I also want a clear clean tasting beer.

I'd imagine this is quite hard to achieve, as I have all the books worth mentioning, and have Googled it . . . . all to no avail!
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: baphomite51 on May 19, 2014, 07:38:14 PM
copied from another site "Erdinger is very light on the banana clove. Its probably one of the cleanest tasting hefeweizens. I would not recommend using wlp300/wyeast 3068 for a good clone. I think Wyeast 3056 would be a better choice for an Erdinger clone. 3056 has a very subdued banana/clove phenol characteristic, which is exactly what erdinger has. As far as the grain bill goes. If you're doing all grain, 50/50 or 60/40 wheat malt and pils malt, and an ounce of hallertau is all you'll need. With extract you should be able to use wheat extract 100%."

also id say if your keep it at the lowest temp the yeast will ferment at you'll minize the banana/clove flavours, the hotter it ferments the more flavours you'll get, but i could be wrong on that
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Tom on May 19, 2014, 08:19:31 PM
Could you not culture up from a couple of bottles, or do they bottle condition with a different yeast? Given that wheatbeers are best drank fresh there's a good chance that the yeast will be in good nick.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Chris on May 19, 2014, 08:34:55 PM

Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2014, 08:19:31 PM
Could you not culture up from a couple of bottles, or do they bottle condition with a different yeast? Given that wheatbeers are best drank fresh there's a good chance that the yeast will be in good nick.
I remember reading somewhere that they use a different yeast for conditioning
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: irish_goat on May 19, 2014, 09:12:51 PM
Quote from: Chris on May 19, 2014, 08:34:55 PM

Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2014, 08:19:31 PM
Could you not culture up from a couple of bottles, or do they bottle condition with a different yeast? Given that wheatbeers are best drank fresh there's a good chance that the yeast will be in good nick.
I remember reading somewhere that they use a different yeast for conditioning

Lager yeast.

QuoteThe filtered beer is tank conditioned, but the greater part of output has a secondary fermentation in the bottle. For this purpose, it is primed with wort, and pre-yeasted with a bottom culture.
http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000121.html
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Eoin on May 19, 2014, 09:18:50 PM
Freeze between 12—15% of the original brew for priming. Don't add priming sugar obviously, just defrosted wort. Ferment at the low end for clean profile.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: HomeBrewWest on May 19, 2014, 09:45:13 PM
Came across that also on line.

Has anybody used wlp300, say at low temp?
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Eoin on May 19, 2014, 10:10:23 PM
I'm not a huge wheat beer fan myself....
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Eoin on May 19, 2014, 10:11:34 PM
A typical German hop addition is 60:40:20 mins
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: mr hoppy on May 20, 2014, 01:05:48 PM
I know this is your area of expertise Eoin, but I thought they just threw it in at the start, especially for wheat beers.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: LordEoin on May 20, 2014, 01:40:22 PM
I thought so too. A small amount for a little bit of bittering, then the rest relies on the grain and the yeast.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Eoin on May 20, 2014, 02:28:27 PM
I'll check the weizen recipes again and come back to you.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Eoin on May 20, 2014, 02:36:16 PM
Ok I just had a look at a recipe database and it appears that they are of two types of addition, some are adding at 90 and 10 and some are adding at 60 and 10 and then some are adding at 90 or 60 only, so you're correct, the more traditional schedules are just one at the start, I've mixed it up with Pils additions.

If anyone wants to translate some recipes:
http://www.maischemalzundmehr.de/index.php

Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: HomeBrewWest on May 20, 2014, 06:59:14 PM
Hmmm,
This one could be a "suck it and see". Could take several iterations though. For all the books we have, and the Internet too, its really surprising that there is no info out there on this one. I have clone recipes for hundreds of beers, but only a handful of wheat ones!
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Tom on May 20, 2014, 07:15:37 PM
Let us know how you get on then, as Erdinger is about the only wheat beer I can tolerate!
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Garry on May 20, 2014, 07:39:16 PM
Clone Brews by Szamatulski has a recipe for Paulaner Hefe-Weissbier. They recommend wyeast 3056 or 3333 @ 20-22'C. They don't do a step mash.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Garry on May 20, 2014, 09:21:49 PM
They also use only 1 hop addition @ 90min. Hallertau Hersbrucker to 2.3 HBU.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: johnrm on May 20, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
IBU?
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: LordEoin on May 20, 2014, 11:19:41 PM
HBU = %AA x Ounces
example for 2.3 HBU would be a half ounce at 4.6%AA (aprox 15grams of Hallertauer Hersbrucker would be pretty close)

IBU comes from the amount of those alpha acids that are isomerized in the boil.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Garry on May 21, 2014, 09:38:24 AM
I had no idea what HBU was when I posted! I just copied it verbatim from the book  :-[ The total IBU of the recipe is 10.

L'Eoin's 15g sounds right.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: johnrm on May 21, 2014, 03:42:21 PM
Also, HBU differs depending on who it comes from.
John Palmer says it is Homebrew Bitter Units.
I have seen it as Home Bittering units or Hop Bittering Units.

Regardless, once the math is consistent then the TLA is irrelevant.

Moving on...
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: LordEoin on May 21, 2014, 03:59:32 PM
the maths is indeed the same :)
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Damien M on May 21, 2014, 04:13:11 PM

Homebrew Bitter Units is a measure of how bad you feel when your batch is infected.  :( :(

Home Bittering units is how bad the members if your home feel based on the volume or intensity of statements like "whats that smell?" or "Ah Da! Brewing Again!!"  >:( >:(

Hop Bittering Units is based on the calculation %AA x Ounces= HBU 

:P :P :P :P :P :P :P ::) ??? 8)
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Eoin on May 22, 2014, 12:25:03 AM
I bet Brian is sorry he asked now haha
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Damien M on May 22, 2014, 07:58:51 AM
I believe its called Topic Drift or is that a Bar of chocolate? I like chocolate! I must make a Chocolate Stout!! Any body have a good recipe!? :P ::)
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: LordEoin on May 22, 2014, 11:46:57 AM
Do they still make Topic chocolate?
(http://i.imgur.com/4RS4Er3.jpg)
They were good
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Eoin on May 22, 2014, 12:37:31 PM
Quote from: LordEoin on May 22, 2014, 11:46:57 AM
Do they still make Topic chocolate?
(http://i.imgur.com/4RS4Er3.jpg)
They were good


Try starting a post on Topic....
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: LordEoin on May 22, 2014, 02:41:45 PM
What? I was just keeping the thread on Topic!  ;D

Anyway, the place would be boring without a bit of meandering.
And not as informative, apart from the Erdinger specific information this tangent has educated many people all about HBU and more about bottle yeast.
Which brings me back to the original topic of Wheatbeers

Scheider Weiss has the primary yeast strain in the bottle, some people have had great success with Paulaner too, most others filter the beer and add lager yeast for bottle conditioning.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: johnrm on May 22, 2014, 04:41:20 PM
Sir Blunt in Cork has had excellent results with Paulaner.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: mr hoppy on May 22, 2014, 09:05:02 PM
Does Paulaner actually have a weiss strain in the bottle. I'd wondered.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: LordEoin on May 22, 2014, 09:29:27 PM
google says no, but people have had good results as john says.
If you want proper Erdinger yeast, apparently Erdinger Pikantus has the proper yeast in the bottle
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: irish_goat on May 22, 2014, 09:51:50 PM
I'm pretty sure Will_D has cultured up Paulaner yeast before. He did a lovely clone brew of it anyway.

If it was me I'd not take the risk and just use a weiss beer that is definitely the original strain in the bottle though.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: mr hoppy on May 22, 2014, 10:42:07 PM
Pikantus is a lovely beer. Much better than the other stuff.
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: Dr Horrible on May 23, 2014, 09:49:50 AM
While we're on the subject (sort of), I have a wheat beer fermenting about two days or so and I'm getting a serious sulphury/eggy smell off it.  I'm using WLP300, fermenting at 18deg.  Is this common for this yeast?
Title: Re: Recipe For An Erdinger Clone
Post by: LordEoin on May 23, 2014, 10:13:00 AM
Yeah, happens frequently. No Problem