I found an old Burco boiler in my oul' fella's shed ages ago. It was fairly battered looking but the inventor in me wanted to make use of it. It's been an on/off project for the last few months but I'm finally finished it.
The boiler is unusual in that the external skin is galvanised steel. It's fairly manky looking but we'll sort that out later. The internal skin is stainless steel and still shinny (ish).
I stripped everything off it first and gave it a bit of a clean. (I know, it doesn't look it!)
(http://i.imgur.com/7fuSJTY.jpg)
I fitted a new 3kw element (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-BURCO-WASHBOILER-HOT-WATER-TEA-URN-ELEMENT-3000W-3KW-WITH-NUT-AND-GASKET-/200935471240?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item2ec8aff888). Then fitted a REX-C100 PID, a solid state relay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-240V-PID-Temperature-Controller-max-40A-SSR-K-Thermocouple-Probe-Heat-Sink-/310838388182?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item485f6965d6) and 12V transformer to power the relay. The transformer is just some old charger I found in the man drawer.
(http://i.imgur.com/RHTkEhO.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/1YN0ef5.jpg)
I drilled a PT100 probe (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RTD-PT100-1m-Silver-Plated-Cable-Temperature-Sensor-with-5x100mm-Probe-JT1-/400712378310?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item5d4c51a7c6) into the kettle.
(http://i.imgur.com/ztbDpcU.jpg)
Here's my wiring diagram.
(http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2826.0;attach=2047;image)
I then fitted a 1/2" brass ball valve and fashioned a dip tube from some fittings I found on the garage floor.
(http://i.imgur.com/K5ufEC0.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/s5LBoj3.jpg)
I graduated the inside of the boiler with a cheapo dremel. It's rough but does the job :P Fair play to all you guys who posted up the etching tutorials lately. I just didn't have the patience.
(http://i.imgur.com/eMwC5P9.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/8sAx2E8.jpg)
I made a lid out of some 80mm thick insulation. It's over-kill but that's what I had in stock. I covered the boiler in a layer of foil insulation. It covers up the ugly galvanised steel nicely. I'll add more insulation to the sides when I get a chance.
(http://i.imgur.com/XggGHRj.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/plahSDq.jpg)
I tried it out on Saturday. I think it took 35min to get 25l of strike water up to 75°C. The PID over-shot a fair bit, but it was better when I did the sparge. I think it will take a few goes before it trains itself.
So that's my 3 tiers finished. What am I supposed to do with myself now? RIMS, HERMS, arduino.........
Nice one Garry!
Fair play you know your stuff 8)
any reason you have a constant current to the transformer instead of having it click on when the PID wants?
Quote from: LordEoin on May 28, 2014, 11:07:02 AM
any reason you have a constant current to the transformer...
It works, leave me alone :P
Quote from: LordEoin on May 28, 2014, 11:07:02 AM
.....instead of having it click on when the PID wants?
My brain is frying trying to figure out how to do that! Tell me how?
Is there a need for the transformer, won't the PID send a 12V pulse to the SSR without it?
Most PID controllers like the STC-1000 drive a set of relay contacts so you can switch what you want with them. They are know as voltage free contacts.
A Solid State Relay, just like a mechanical coil relay needs a low voltage to cause it to work.
So the transformer is powered all the time just like Gary's drawing
it only needs to be powered when you want the SSR to switch. At least that's how I wire mine, which is why I'm wondering.
(http://i.imgur.com/uePAOks.jpg)
I would stick with Garys original.
Transformers/power supplies are NOT designed to be switched on and off continously!
Every switching causes a surge of current through the primary windings - not good.
If you have ever switched on big transformers then you will hear the "thunk" as the traffo draws an initial surge of current. That is why large inductive loads (like motors and traffos) have special fusing requiremnts!
They're not designed to be mastic'd to the bottom of a Burco boiler either, but reason accepted. you win a cookie! :)
I see what you mean now Eoin. I think I'll stick with what I have. I'd be afraid I'd fry the PID with the 240V on top of what Will says. Anyway, when you have a 3kw element on for a few hours, a 12v transformer isn't going to make the meter turn much faster.
It's interesting reading Will's post. I actually blew my solar-pump power supply during the weekend. I assumed it was the pump that went because everyone says they are shít. But it was the power supply. I'm thinking now that maybe I was switching it on/off too much? Or maybe it was a crap power supply.
Quote from: donnchadhc on May 28, 2014, 11:52:00 AM
Is there a need for the transformer, won't the PID send a 12V pulse to the SSR without it?
I would have though the the transformer was not required either. Does the PID not output not produce a 12V DC output that would be sufficient to operate the SSR? Essentially having it's own internal Transformer?
Maybe I'm missing something, can someone tell me why the Transformer is required?
The PID doesn't push electricity, it just flicks an internal switch to complete the circuit.
Quote from: cno1 on May 28, 2014, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: donnchadhc on May 28, 2014, 11:52:00 AM
Is there a need for the transformer, won't the PID send a 12V pulse to the SSR without it?
I would have though the the transformer was not required either. Does the PID not output not produce a 12V DC output that would be sufficient to operate the SSR? Essentially having it's own internal Transformer?
Maybe I'm missing something, can someone tell me why the Transformer is required?
This PID controller is just a relay. I wouldn't trust it on it's own to power a 3kw element, that's why I'm using the SSR relay. It's the SSR relay that requires the 12v supply.
There are many different types of PID controller out there. Maybe some have an internal transformer? This particular one doesn't. I bought this one because I've seen it pop up a few times on other brewing forums. It's also very good value.
Ah, no internal transformer, makes sense.
Apologies for the necro bump but I'm wondering Garry if you still have the wiring diagram you used for this HLT? The link to it seems to have gone dead.
I'm in the planning stages of putting a PID into my ACE Mash Tun / Boiler and this post looks like it could be very useful.
I've fixed the link in the original post. You should be able to see the wiring diagram now.
Quote from: Garry on January 11, 2016, 05:07:42 PM
I've fixed the link in the original post. You should be able to see the wiring diagram now.
Good stuff, thanks for that. Looks exactly what I'm looking for.
Quote from: BrewDorg on January 11, 2016, 04:46:40 PM
I'm in the planning stages of putting a PID into my ACE Mash Tun / Boiler and this post looks like it could be very useful.
Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I'm planning something similar. If you're ordering thermowells, pids etc. let me know if you want to split an order to save on shipping.
Quote from: cruiscinlan on January 11, 2016, 05:25:50 PM
Quote from: BrewDorg on January 11, 2016, 04:46:40 PM
I'm in the planning stages of putting a PID into my ACE Mash Tun / Boiler and this post looks like it could be very useful.
Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I'm planning something similar. If you're ordering thermowells, pids etc. let me know if you want to split an order to save on shipping.
Nice one, will let you know when I'm putting the parts together. Do you have the ACE boiler too? I'm debating whether to put the controller in the skirt, or build it in an external housing and plug it in. What have you planned yourself?
Quote from: BrewDorg on January 11, 2016, 05:28:07 PM
Nice one, will let you know when I'm putting the parts together. Do you have the ACE boiler too? I'm debating whether to put the controller in the skirt, or build it in an external housing and plug it in. What have you planned yourself?
As ACE have put the price up to £119.99 ex-delivery I decided to go for this Igenix 30L boiler for £76 incl. free deliver to Norn Irn. It looks the same as the ACE unit but I'll have to put in a S/S tap: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Igenix-IG4030-Catering-Urn-500/dp/B004VKYEHU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452533634&sr=8-1&keywords=igenix+4030
The skirt sounds like a good idea, if there's space. I was also thinking of doing an insulation job around the body and then you could mount it on that something like the grainfather controller. You'd have to put it in a splash proof box though as well.
That looks the job, just needs the insulation like you say. I wish mine had a sight glass or even graduation markings.
Right so I think I've decided to put mine into the skirt. I can set it up the same as the boiler in Garry's opening post so that's dead handy. I'm going to buy this PID kit (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REX-C100-Digital-PID-Temperature-Control-40A-SSR-K-Thermocouple-Heat-Sink-/201381968354) but replacing the K thermocouple with a PT100 instead. I'll also be purchasing this 5A 12V DC transformer (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161769013165).
I plan to drill a hole through the base of my boiler for the temp probe. Does anyone see a problem with this? I've only ever seen them mounted through the side but with the double lining on my boiler, it'd be difficult to do. I BIAB with my setup btw.
I was wondering can you replace the k type thermocouple with a pt100, in the manual for the pid it states that the model you're buying(and the one I have) is a k type input only, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that you can simply get a new thermocouple. Anyone with more experience with them able to chip in and give advice, I asked my electronic engineer brother but he wasn't certain.
Quote from: dcalnan on January 11, 2016, 09:26:40 PM
I was wondering can you replace the k type thermocouple with a pt100, in the manual for the pid it states that the model you're buying(and the one I have) is a k type input only, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that you can simply get a new thermocouple. Anyone with more experience with them able to chip in and give advice, I asked my electronic engineer brother but he wasn't certain.
There are a couple of different types of REX-C100 on eBay. The one with model number ending V*AN will be able to take a PT100, whereas the more common M*AN won't (take a look at the side of the unit in the eBay pics and on your own unit too). This post (http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=158160&postcount=15) on another forum shows how the input can be changed. The only worry here is that the seller sends out the wrong type despite the model in the picture being V*AN.
I also found this very useful guide (http://www.rkcinst.co.jp/english/pdf_manual/imnzc21e1.pdf) to working the REX-C100 and deciphering the various models/options it has.
Great mine ends in v*an, I spent a lot of time looking if I could do it. Now I need to buy a pt100 with the 1/2 inch fitting and longer probe and I can finally start my hlt build. Which will be using my old plastic boiler, when I upgrade that to a stainless pot.
Worth trying it out anyway based on that thread I linked. I'll be getting this PT100 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/151803081694), looks like what you're after too. Will need to get a gasket and a nut too. Any thoughts on putting the probe upwards through the base instead of through the side?
V*an is the ssr version m*an is the relay version. The v*an is what ye need and can take a pt100 probe
I guess the bottom would be best if you're insulting it and have the skirt underneath to hide it. I know the only way to get a more accurate reading with them is installing them in a tee fitting and have the liquid constantly flowing through it.
I saw a thread somewhere recently that quoted random posts from forums without any context. Read this post again as if you haven't read the rest of the thread :D
Quote from: dcalnan on January 11, 2016, 11:06:28 PM
I guess the bottom would be best if you're insulting it and have the skirt underneath to hide it. I know the only way to get a more accurate reading with them is installing them in a tee fitting and have the liquid constantly flowing through it.
Sorry daire, nothing personal that post just made me think of the other thread
Quote from: BrewDorg on January 11, 2016, 09:07:59 PM
That looks the job, just needs the insulation like you say. I wish mine had a sight glass or even graduation markings.
By the looks of it I'll have to remove the sight glass as its part of the tap assembly. I'll have to measure the interior and mark off levels with a grinder of some sort (possibly borrow a dremel from someone).
Quote from: BrewDorg on January 11, 2016, 09:07:59 PM
I plan to drill a hole through the base of my boiler for the temp probe. Does anyone see a problem with this? I've only ever seen them mounted through the side but with the double lining on my boiler, it'd be difficult to do. I BIAB with my setup btw.
Cheers for the links to the kit you're getting that looks a great deal. Why will you swop out the thermocouple? Also are you going to get a thermowell fitting for it or put it in direct?
Only thing I can think of with putting the probe on the bottom is that perhaps the heating action of the element will put it off? I was planning on putting mine halfway up just to get it midway between the two extremes.
I'll be going the dremel route too. Either that or else the metal etching with a 9V battery.
I'm going to swap out the TC for the PT100 as they're more accurate. It's possibly overkill for me right now but I know I'll probably upgrade my kit to recirculate the mash and at that stage I'll want the accuracy of the PT100.
I plan on drilling it straight through the bottom of the kettle, towards the edge, as far away from the element as possible. I'm doing this so I can have everything contained in the skirt. If I didn't have the double lining, I'd be putting it through the side but it'd be a pain in the ass drilling through both layers and then having a gammy looking wire from the side into the skirt. Just want it to look nice and neat.
Quote from: dcalnan on January 11, 2016, 11:06:28 PM
I know the only way to get a more accurate reading with them is installing them in a tee fitting and have the liquid constantly flowing through it.
How exactly would you have them in a t-fitting? As in screwed into the wall of the boiler and then internally placed inside a t-fitting?
something like this on the outside of the HLT, It does need a pump to recirculate water though it
(http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/images/IMG_5215_2.jpg)
Quote from: BrewDorg on January 12, 2016, 01:24:37 PM
I'll be going the dremel route too. Either that or else the metal etching with a 9V battery.
I'm going to swap out the TC for the PT100 as they're more accurate. It's possibly overkill for me right now but I know I'll probably upgrade my kit to recirculate the mash and at that stage I'll want the accuracy of the PT100.
Did you get all the kit for the work as yet? As well will you be getting one of those stainless ports for the temp sense or place it directly into the tank?
Where are you getting the PT100? It's a great idea to build it to have it ready later for a pump set-up.
Quote from: cruiscinlan on January 15, 2016, 11:02:46 AM
Did you get all the kit for the work as yet? As well will you be getting one of those stainless ports for the temp sense or place it directly into the tank?
Where are you getting the PT100? It's a great idea to build it to have it ready later for a pump set-up.
Yep I've ordered everything. This is the PT100 (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/151803081694?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) I bought. Not cheap but worth future proofing myself. I also left off the transformer because after doing some research, the V*AN model REX C100 doesn't need it. It uses a voltage pulse for the SSR so happy days.
For now, the PT100 will be drilled into the bottom of my boiler, allowing me to have everything installed neatly in the skirt. If (more likely WHEN) I decide to add a pump for recirculation, I'll take it out and have it installed in a T joint at the tap.
Quote from: BrewDorg on January 15, 2016, 02:38:17 PM
I also left off the transformer because after doing some research, the V*AN model REX C100 doesn't need it. It uses a voltage pulse for the SSR so happy days.
Slightly confused here, so you'll be wiring the PID set up directly to the A/C from a plug then?
Correct, here's the circuit diagram I have planned for it. My kettle has an AC plug already there, so I'm just going to strip out the current thermostat and wire this one in. The PT100 should have a 3rd connection too on pin 8. Worth nothing that for the M*AN version, Garrys diagram on page 1 is spot on.
Would really recommend http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/ for any research regards HLT etc. It is now my bible for my rebuild.
Links to parts and also a forum.
Well my catering urn arrived. However it is the wrong model number i.e. 20L internal capacity and has no dial thermostat on the side.
Now the question is should I keep it and work with it or return it and re-order? I think a 20L capacity would be quite tight on space especially with a big mash.
I'd return. I use 45L and have come close to the top a few times on bigger beers, assuming 30L into the boil kettle.
Whoah! What a monster! Where'd you get that?
Ah, I have converted keggles, though before that I used a converted igloo 45L cooler that I sold here over xmas.
If you're doing a BIAB setup, 20L is just going to be very very small for a standard boil.
I wouldn't mind another 5-10 litres of headspace on my 30L model. I'd definitely return it.
So finally wired up my pid and it won't work. Firstly it's telling me that its input range is 0-1200 k-06, and not the 0-400 k-02 that I bought, and secondly it's saying that the measured value (PV) is over the scale. I think the problem is I bought a berme rex c100 and not a rkc made one.
I have mine wired up but I can't test it because I need to water seal my kettle before I can fill it and test. I'm thinking of adding a second switch that would allow me to turn the REX on without turning the element on too but not sure if I can do that.
Once I have it all wired up, I'll see if I'm getting similar to you.
I had my auber wired up so both elements had a kill switch that way I could monitor temps etc it's definitely do able.
This is what I have planned so. I have the PID wired up and successfully finished a brew with it yesterday evening. My next plan is to add a toggle switch to allow me control the kettle with either the PID for mashing, or a PWM for boiling and controlling the boil. The kettle boils too vigorously for my liking as is, so this could be a solution. I planned to wire it so that I can still see the temperature on the PID while controlling it with the PWM. I've also added a thermal switch for safety to prevent dry boils. Does anybody know if this could cause an issue with the PIDs tuning?
Are you putting a transformer in for the pwm?
The one I bought is for AC so all good there.
So I wired up my kettle this evening just like in my diagram. However, the RCD trips every time I ramp the PWM past 1/4 of the way. Anyone have any ideas why this is happening? Everything looks like it's wired and grounded correctly. PWM is the one below...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331012329594
Edit: Just realised where you meant I needed a transformer dcalnan :( I'll have to go get one
Probably going to avoid the need for a transformer and rewire it like so:
I've decided to abandon the PWM. I don't know why, but it's tripping my sockets fuse when cranked up more than 1/4 of the way. Also, I fried my SSR with all the messing around.
Instead I've bought a MYPIN TD4 PID controller. This has a manual mode which allows you to set a % on the power supplied per second. So this will achieve the same goal much more nealty, albeit more expensive.
Brewdorg, do you have any knowledge on the difference between the temp probes out there? I've posted a list of them in the STC-1000 thread:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291671778727?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172135786456?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151803081694?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
They all appear to be the pt100 that was recommended as the most accurate one, but they range from £2.79 to £5.45 ea.