National Homebrew Club Ireland

I am getting married on Friday and I wanted to put a cask of cider into my local for the afters on Saturday. Initially he had no problem but now the publican is concerned that revenue might not be impressed. If I supply the Cider for free and the publican gives it away for free surely there should be no issues. It is the same thing as homebrew clubs meeting in a pub and giving beer to one another.
Does anybody have a definite answer on this issue or is it a grey area? 
Just to confirm it is my own home brew that I intend putting into the pub.

I maybe wrong here - but technically I dont think you can give away unlicensed beer / cider on a licensed premisies (regardless of cost).

Ironically - I believe you can give it away on an unlicensed premisies.  So you can give your beer/cider away at home but NOT in a pub.

I couldnt be arsed fishing through the statute pages for the exact reference but we have been here before.

That said - If I was in your shoes - I'd do it as well.
It would want to be a very bored revenue guy to be intereseted in that - especially the fact that you are giving it away for free.

As long as the Pub is not open to the public at the time there is no problem. I.e. If the premises is booked for a private party. Also as an aside if the pub is booked for a private party closing time does not apply as long as the beer/ cider is being given away and no profit is being made. If the pub is open to the public the provision of free alcohol can be seen as a promotion which is illegal.

Shane is right in that It is fine to give it to family and friends.

The only grey are is where it is served I think as punters may avail of it. In that case  The rev says

' The home brewed beer that will be brought on to the premises for sampling by the punters will not qualify for relief under Section 77 (f) FA 2003, as a consequence arrangements will have to be made to pay the Alcohol Products Tax (Excise Duty) on this beer.  In order to do this contact should be made with the local Revenue Office in whose area the pub hosting the event is located.  The Alcohol Products Tax (Excise Duty) could be paid by way of Excise Duty Entry or short CI.  This can be discussed with those in the Revenue Office'
having said that cider might be different again.

Mind you that was the response from revenue to holding a pay into homebrew festival that was proposed last year.
I wouldn't worry...as he runs for the hills

So I can hire a function room and serve out homebrew grand ?
Does the whole pub need to be closed ?

That legal mumbo jumbo means nothing to me ..

Quote from: Partridge9 on August 15, 2014, 11:16:48 AM
So I can hire a function room and serve out homebrew grand ?
Does the whole pub need to be closed ?

That legal mumbo jumbo means nothing to me ..

We may need to follow up on this if we have some sort of club festival again.

It would be nice to have an official line from the revenue with regards to homebrew, but I'd imagine they will commit to nothing

The homebrew in a function room is news to me, great for private functions !

First off, congrats! Have a great day!

I've no idea of the legalities of this but I do have some input. Our suppliers often travel top Galway (and all over the UK) promoting their homebrew beers and wines by giving out samples.

According to them, its fine as long as the sample glass is below a certain size (about a shot glass size). I can ask for more details, but this will be UK law . . . . same as here?

Thanks for all the responses. Nothing is simple in this wonderful little country of ours is it?
So the consensus is that to the letter of the law you are not allowed to give away free beer in a licenced premises unless the excise is paid? But plenty of home brew clubs do meet in pubs and give each other beer to taste with no real issue and that it would be unlikely for a revenue officer to make too much of a deal for one off event in a pub where home brew was being given away for free.
A mate of mine has a huge marqee that sometimes gets set up in the car park of this pub and I could get it free for the day.
So would I be correct in saying there should be absolutely no issue with giving away free cider in a marquee beside a pub (in their car park). If that person then chooses to bring his free beverage into the pub the publican has no issue either.
It seems like a lot of bother but I want to keep this 100% legit as I will be applying to the revenue in September for a manufacturing licence for cider and I don't want this to cause any issue, but this stuff was 100% home brewed

Just some more info, the "samples" will likely be in pint glasses and beside my cask of cider there will be a cask of ale from the local craft brewery, but this will be excise paid as it was sourced from a commercial brewery.

Quote from: CiderMonster on August 15, 2014, 11:44:30 AM

Just some more info, the "samples" will likely be in pint glasses and beside my cask of cider there will be a cask of ale from the local craft brewery, but this will be excise paid as it was sourced from a commercial brewery.

I suppose none of us work for revenue so can't say officially. You might be best contacting them to be 100% sure if the publican wants assurance.

Quote from: Dube on August 15, 2014, 12:03:32 PM

Quote from: Partridge9 on August 15, 2014, 11:23:05 AM
It would be nice to have an official line from the revenue with regards to homebrew, but I'd imagine they will commit to nothing

There is an official line, it's in the Statute Book.

Salient points:
1. Brewed at home
2. Free
3. To your guests

It doesn't matter where as it's not for sale. This is why homebrew meets can happen in pubs.

Many many people give away homebrew at weddings in hotels etc.

I knew it happened - but I didnt realise it was 100% legit.  Nice to know it is !

Quote from: Partridge9 on August 15, 2014, 12:19:03 PM

Quote from: Dube on August 15, 2014, 12:03:32 PM

Quote from: Partridge9 on August 15, 2014, 11:23:05 AM
It would be nice to have an official line from the revenue with regards to homebrew, but I'd imagine they will commit to nothing

There is an official line, it's in the Statute Book.

Salient points:
1. Brewed at home
2. Free
3. To your guests

It doesn't matter where as it's not for sale. This is why homebrew meets can happen in pubs.

Many many people give away homebrew at weddings in hotels etc.

I knew it happened - but I didnt realise it was 100% legit.  Nice to know it is !

77f is just for us!

Doing a little research I found this
Subsection 77 (f) of the 2003 Act provides for relief from Alcohol Products Tax in certain circumstances in respect of wine, Beer, or other fermented beverages, the alcohol content of which is entirely of fermented origin. The relief is confined to such alcohol products produced solely by a private individual in a private premises for consumption by the producer or by the family or guests of such producer, and not produced or supplied for a consideration. Relief does not apply if brewing takes place on a commercial premises.

Reading that it would seem ok as it does not mention anything about the guests being in licenced premises I have asked the revenue to confirm so I might have a definitive answer for you soon.

I just got a phone call from the revenue commissioners in Meath. They referenced Subsection 77 (f) of the 2003 Act and they agreed,  as long as it is produced at home and there is no consideration it can be given to family and friends anywhere this includes a licenced premises. No issues.

Quote from: CiderMonster on August 15, 2014, 02:26:19 PM

I just got a phone call from the revenue commissioners in Meath. They referenced Subsection 77 (f) of the 2003 Act and they agreed,  as long as it is produced at home and there is no consideration it can be given to family and friends anywhere this includes a licenced premises. No issues.

Nice work.

Well - Im off to buy my orthapedic shoes .. (so I stand corrected!)

@CiderMonster, Conrats on the wedding and welcome to the NHC.

It looks like you're sorted  :)

The "consideration" bit has me thinking though. Consideration in law is usually a monetary payment but it can also be goods or services. If I swap a bottle of homebrew with another homebrewer are we not "considerating" each other?

Quote from: Dube on August 15, 2014, 02:32:23 PM
I prefer to look up the legislation myself, as it's a lottery as to whether you'll get the right answer over the phone from state agencies.

Hah, yeah... been there! It seems that, rather like the world's greatest joke or Bletchley Park... individuals are only allowed to know certain bits of helpful information. You need to try 3 or four revenue officials to get close to a feckin' answer.

I've spent 7 months this year trying to get a cider manufacturing licence. I've got premises and suppliers and potential customers all lined up. I will be making another application in September for a new licence for 2014 – 2015. Hopefully that will go ok.

I shudder to think how they would apply excise to a cider/wheat beer mix? Because it is not a cider as defined by the revenue, but beer is subject to lower excise.

Quote from: CiderMonster on August 15, 2014, 02:54:06 PM

I've spent 7 months this year trying to get a cider manufacturing licence. I've got premises and suppliers and potential customers all lined up. I will be making another application in September for a new licence for 2014 – 2015. Hopefully that will go ok.

I shudder to think how they would apply excise to a cider/wheat beer mix? Because it is not a cider as defined by the revenue, but beer is subject to lower excise.

Oh boy. Great combo. I've wheat yeast building up for a batch this weekend and although I'll blend cider with the wheat post fermentation it is a really tasty beer.

Are you planning on blending in post fv or is it possible to ferment the two together and still get a great result?

Blend Post fermentation. I will let the cider fement and mature for a few months before I source the wheat beer. We just have to be very carefull with the blending. Mixing a 6% cider with a 4.2% wheat beer could result in a 5% cider/beer. The market mighn't be huge but we will give it a go.

We also intend back blending cider with some cascade hop addition. In small batches it works but once again it might not be for everyones taste.

We intend trying out a few mad things along with pure ciders some cider beer cross overs.
Fingers crossed.

Interesting about the blending. How does it work if you try to blend the two after bottling, i.e. in the glass. What sort of differences do you get when they've given a bit of time to ferment together.

The reason I ask is I plan to make cider later in the year and I'm going to be kegging a wheat beer in the next few weeks, so I won't have a window to mix them before bottling.

I can't imagine blending the two in the glass would cause any problems, it's a fancy snakebite. Just remember the resultant mixture is likely to be cloudy regardless how clear the two original liquids are.
Fermenting together I'm not so sure I like to let the cider do its own thing and ferment outside or in a room that's not heated or shed. A rule of thumb would be a nice slow fermentation of cider and a fairly decent maturing period produce the best result.
Saying that you can make a turbo cider if you want and you could probably ferment it together with the beer but I've never tried it or heard anybody trying it. I wouldn't risk a whole lot on the first batch God knows what jungle juice you would produce. Let me know how you get on if you try this.

Ah I think this is a wording fail by me. I meant, ferment separately, but blend before bottling. I'm trying to figure out what the difference is in the final product between blending pre-bottling vs. just mixing like a snakebite.

As for fermenting together, I have seen that people add wheat malt to the cider fermentation, but that's not really the same as having a wheat beer yeast doing its thing in the same vessal as the AJ.

Interesting that is ferments happily outside in the cool though. I take it that temperature fluctuations don't have such an effect on cider.

Sorry for all the musings and questions; cider is quite new to me from a homebrewing perspective.

Quote from: CiderMonster on August 15, 2014, 02:54:06 PM

I've spent 7 months this year trying to get a cider manufacturing licence. I've got premises and suppliers and potential customers all lined up. I will be making another application in September for a new licence for 2014 – 2015. Hopefully that will go ok.

I shudder to think how they would apply excise to a cider/wheat beer mix? Because it is not a cider as defined by the revenue, but beer is subject to lower excise.

Hi CM, You do know about the derogation in the (iirc) 1948 cider licensing laws?

To paraphrase:

"If you are a landowner and your buisness is not solely as a cider maker then you are exemnpted from the need to have a license."

This is how Tempted Cider won a legal case brought by revenue.

It means that if you are a landowner and make money from say: Eggs, bBeef, Chickens, Fruit Jams and Juices and you also possess apple trees then you can make and sell the cider without the revenue being involved.

If you want more info on the act it has been posted here but can also send you more info if you PM me

Quote from: Dube on August 15, 2014, 10:08:31 PM
Ahem, it's the 1940 Cider Duty Act (drafted into law in 1941). Search the statue book.

David Llewellyn was acquitted in court as he was/is operating under this Act. Google for it and you'll find media coverage of the case (Tempted are in the NI/UK where there is no similar Act)

Not bad tho' for an old fa*ts memory!

In the UK there is a farm gate clause that allows farmers to sell cider (up to a certain amount (large)) without the excise men getting their cut.

Similar law applies in Germany for cider and even Schnapps!