National Homebrew Club Ireland

I was wondering what everyones opinion is on Starsan vs Chemipro Oxi for sanitizing brew equipment? I used Chemipro the first time around and felt there was an off taste from the beer.

Chemipro oxi is marketed as a 'no rinse' sanitiser but it definitely needs to be rinsed. It's excellent for cleaning hard to reach places (inside tubing etc...) but Lidl oxi clean is just as good.

Quote from: John_C on October 03, 2014, 05:47:01 PM
Chemipro oxi is marketed as a 'no rinse' sanitiser but it definitely needs to be rinsed. It's excellent for cleaning hard to reach places (inside tubing etc...) but Lidl oxi clean is just as good.

As far as I know both oxygen based cleaners although the chemipro oxy is a good bit dearer. Have used both and the active oxygen in chemipro oxi is brilliant for cleaning babies bottles and drinking cups (top tip) :)

Word to the wise don't let your skin come in contact for either for any prolonged period as it will dissolve the fat from the skin cells and your knuckles will resemble and old mans (a wrinkled bloody mess).

Shanna

I was using chemipro as my no rince sanatiser for bottling for quite a while and had no ill effects, bat it takes months before I get decent head retention on my brews. Think that's just a process issue though.

Now using starsan with VWP or Lidl oxi for the cleaner, as my bucket of starsan in RO water lasts ages so it's cheap as chips.

I had a batch I had to dump back in the days when I believed the no rinse sanitiser line on oxy. That was a couple of years ago.
Still use oxy, lidl, or vwp for cleaning but everything gets starsan rinse since then and never had a problem with that method of sanitising.

I hate to be the fly in the ointment again but neither Chempro (afaik)or Lidl W5 are sanitizers,they are briliant oxygen based cleaners but that is a they are is cleaners,i use the Lidl stuff myself. Starsan is a sanitizer but is not a cleaner.If you use chempro or Lidl oxy you still should use an actual sanitizer. ;D

http://www.homebrewwest.ie/chemipro-oxi-no-rinse-cleaner-sterilizer-1-kg-1628-p.asp

Despite the misleading title if you read the text you will see that Chempro is indeed a "cleaner" not a "sanitizer". To sanitize something you have to actually kill bacteria etc.,neither Lidl oxy or Chempro do this,Starsan does. ;D

Chemipro is sold as a no Prince sanatizer which is one big issue here I think. I think brewferm even recommend you use it for that purpose.

Quote from: molc on October 03, 2014, 07:32:42 PM
Chemipro is sold as a no Prince sanatizer which is one big issue here I think. I think brewferm even recommend you use it for that purpose.

It might be sold as that but it is not true,it is not a sanitizer. ;D

I sorta suspected as much. I think I might postpone tomorrows brew day, unfortunately, until I buy some starsan. Pain in the ass but I guess not as big a pain as off tasting beer! A big thanks for all the responses.

You can use the bleach/vinegar  mix to achieve sanitisation too if you want to brew tomorrow. Everyone has bleach and vinegar to hand.

Quote from: imark on October 03, 2014, 10:49:42 PM
You can use the bleach/vinegar  mix to achieve sanitisation too if you want to brew tomorrow. Everyone has bleach and vinegar to hand.

Remember to never mix them directly as it will produce chlorine gas (the stuff from the trenches of World War 1). See
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,6145.msg78002.html#msg78002 &
http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemicals/a/Mixing-Bleach-And-Vinegar.htm

Shanna

Quote from: Shanna on October 03, 2014, 11:06:43 PM

Quote from: imark on October 03, 2014, 10:49:42 PM
You can use the bleach/vinegar  mix to achieve sanitisation too if you want to brew tomorrow. Everyone has bleach and vinegar to hand.

Remember to never mix them directly as it will produce chlorine gas (the stuff from the trenches of World War 1). See
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,6145.msg78002.html#msg78002 &
http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemicals/a/Mixing-Bleach-And-Vinegar.htm

Shanna

+1 on what Shanna said be careful but if you are perfectly fine sanitizer,its what i use for bulk sanitizing and i just have the starsan in a spray bottle for quick touch ups :o

Quote from: Greg2013 on October 03, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
I hate to be the fly in the ointment again but neither Chempro (afaik)or Lidl W5 are sanitizers,they are briliant oxygen based cleaners but that is a they are is cleaners,i use the Lidl stuff myself. Starsan is a sanitizer but is not a cleaner.If you use chempro or Lidl oxy you still should use an actual sanitizer. ;D

http://www.homebrewwest.ie/chemipro-oxi-no-rinse-cleaner-sterilizer-1-kg-1628-p.asp

Despite the misleading title if you read the text you will see that Chempro is indeed a "cleaner" not a "sanitizer". To sanitize something you have to actually kill bacteria etc.,neither Lidl oxy or Chempro do this,Starsan does. ;D

Here we go again on the topic. W5 is made of mainly sodium percarbonate. The quote is taken from JP how to brew.

Percarbonates
Sodium percarbonate is sodium carbonate (i.e. Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda) reacted with hydrogen peroxide and it is a very effective cleaner for all types of brewing equipment. It rinses easily. Several products (e.g. Straight-A, Powder Brewery Wash, B-Brite, and One-Step) are approved by the FDA as cleaners in food-manufacturing facilities. One-Step is labeled as a light cleaner and final rinse agent, and produces hydrogen peroxide in solution. Hydrogen peroxide will effectively sanitize surfaces and containers that are already clean. As with all sanitizers, the effectiveness of hydrogen peroxide as a sanitizing agent is comprimised by organic soil. Use these cleaners according to the manufacturer's instructions, but generally use one tablespoon per gallon (4 ml per liter) and rinse after cleaning.

In my opinion, percarbonate-based cleaners are the best choice for equipment cleaning, and Straight-A from Logic Inc., and Powder Brewery Wash (PBW) from Five Star Chemicals, Inc. are the best of them. These products combine sodium metasilicate with the percarbonate in a stable form which increases its effectivity and prevents the corrosion of metals like copper and aluminum that strong alkaline solutions can cause.

Now it does both. Depending on how soiled the equipment is use it once to de-soil and once more to sanitize. Then rinse (i rinse with cold water then hot).The only non rinse solution is vaporised H202. If you have something dripping in starsan in contact with beer of course it will contaminate it, but to what discernible level. The next time the people doing the off flavors as part of the judging they could spike some beer with it.

Quote from: Covey on October 07, 2014, 07:54:42 PM

Quote from: Greg2013 on October 03, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
I hate to be the fly in the ointment again but neither Chempro (afaik)or Lidl W5 are sanitizers,they are briliant oxygen based cleaners but that is a they are is cleaners,i use the Lidl stuff myself. Starsan is a sanitizer but is not a cleaner.If you use chempro or Lidl oxy you still should use an actual sanitizer. ;D

http://www.homebrewwest.ie/chemipro-oxi-no-rinse-cleaner-sterilizer-1-kg-1628-p.asp

Despite the misleading title if you read the text you will see that Chempro is indeed a "cleaner" not a "sanitizer". To sanitize something you have to actually kill bacteria etc.,neither Lidl oxy or Chempro do this,Starsan does. ;D

Here we go again on the topic. W5 is made of mainly sodium percarbonate. The quote is taken from JP how to brew.

Percarbonates
Sodium percarbonate is sodium carbonate (i.e. Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda) reacted with hydrogen peroxide and it is a very effective cleaner for all types of brewing equipment. It rinses easily. Several products (e.g. Straight-A, Powder Brewery Wash, B-Brite, and One-Step) are approved by the FDA as cleaners in food-manufacturing facilities. One-Step is labeled as a light cleaner and final rinse agent, and produces hydrogen peroxide in solution. Hydrogen peroxide will effectively sanitize surfaces and containers that are already clean. As with all sanitizers, the effectiveness of hydrogen peroxide as a sanitizing agent is comprimised by organic soil. Use these cleaners according to the manufacturer's instructions, but generally use one tablespoon per gallon (4 ml per liter) and rinse after cleaning.

In my opinion, percarbonate-based cleaners are the best choice for equipment cleaning, and Straight-A from Logic Inc., and Powder Brewery Wash (PBW) from Five Star Chemicals, Inc. are the best of them. These products combine sodium metasilicate with the percarbonate in a stable form which increases its effectivity and prevents the corrosion of metals like copper and aluminum that strong alkaline solutions can cause.

Now it does both. Depending on how soiled the equipment is use it once to de-soil and once more to sanitize. Then rinse (i rinse with cold water then hot).The only non rinse solution is vaporised H202. If you have something dripping in starsan in contact with beer of course it will contaminate it, but to what discernible level. The next time the people doing the off flavors as part of the judging they could spike some beer with it.

Sodium percarbonate is not available in high enough concentration in any of the products mentioned in order to provide enough pure hydrogen peroxide to effectively sanitize anything,it simply isn't. That quote tells me nothing and frankly is misleading,there are no scientific facts or data to back that up,such as telling me how much sodium percarbonate and of what purity and what contact time would be required to effectively sanitize,sanitize/disinfect/clean three completely different things.

Sorry Hoss but you are going to have to do better than a very general and broad sweeping quote with no data backup from a brewing book,show me a peer reviewed scientific paper or article or such with the required data.

There is a big reason(but not the only one) that sodium percarbonate afaik is not used in the pro brewing industry or food related industry as a sanitizer,that is it doesn't sanitize.  :o

Quote from: Greg2013 on October 07, 2014, 08:32:17 PM

Quote from: Covey on October 07, 2014, 07:54:42 PM

Quote from: Greg2013 on October 03, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
I hate to be the fly in the ointment again but neither Chempro (afaik)or Lidl W5 are sanitizers,they are briliant oxygen based cleaners but that is a they are is cleaners,i use the Lidl stuff myself. Starsan is a sanitizer but is not a cleaner.If you use chempro or Lidl oxy you still should use an actual sanitizer. ;D

http://www.homebrewwest.ie/chemipro-oxi-no-rinse-cleaner-sterilizer-1-kg-1628-p.asp

Despite the misleading title if you read the text you will see that Chempro is indeed a "cleaner" not a "sanitizer". To sanitize something you have to actually kill bacteria etc.,neither Lidl oxy or Chempro do this,Starsan does. ;D

Here we go again on the topic. W5 is made of mainly sodium percarbonate. The quote is taken from JP how to brew.

Percarbonates
Sodium percarbonate is sodium carbonate (i.e. Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda) reacted with hydrogen peroxide and it is a very effective cleaner for all types of brewing equipment. It rinses easily. Several products (e.g. Straight-A, Powder Brewery Wash, B-Brite, and One-Step) are approved by the FDA as cleaners in food-manufacturing facilities. One-Step is labeled as a light cleaner and final rinse agent, and produces hydrogen peroxide in solution. Hydrogen peroxide will effectively sanitize surfaces and containers that are already clean. As with all sanitizers, the effectiveness of hydrogen peroxide as a sanitizing agent is comprimised by organic soil. Use these cleaners according to the manufacturer's instructions, but generally use one tablespoon per gallon (4 ml per liter) and rinse after cleaning.

In my opinion, percarbonate-based cleaners are the best choice for equipment cleaning, and Straight-A from Logic Inc., and Powder Brewery Wash (PBW) from Five Star Chemicals, Inc. are the best of them. These products combine sodium metasilicate with the percarbonate in a stable form which increases its effectivity and prevents the corrosion of metals like copper and aluminum that strong alkaline solutions can cause.

Now it does both. Depending on how soiled the equipment is use it once to de-soil and once more to sanitize. Then rinse (i rinse with cold water then hot).The only non rinse solution is vaporised H202. If you have something dripping in starsan in contact with beer of course it will contaminate it, but to what discernible level. The next time the people doing the off flavors as part of the judging they could spike some beer with it.

Sodium percarbonate is not available in high enough concentration in any of the products mentioned in order to provide enough pure hydrogen peroxide to effectively sanitize anything,it simply isn't. That quote tells me nothing and frankly is misleading,there are no scientific facts or data to back that up,such as telling me how much sodium percarbonate and of what purity and what contact time would be required to effectively sanitize,sanitize/disinfect/clean three completely different things.

Sorry Hoss but you are going to have to do better than a very general and broad sweeping quote with no data backup from a brewing book,show me a peer reviewed scientific paper or article or such with the required data.

There is a big reason(but not the only one) that sodium percarbonate afaik is not used in the pro brewing industry or food related industry as a sanitizer,that is it doesn't sanitize.  :o

W5 is a very good Cleaner/sanitizer cleaner for home brewing. it's a fact loads of people on here and else where use it for that purpose.If its data your after then look to the 1000's of infection free batches that have been brewed on equipment sanitized using W5. If your looking for a scientific paper on it i cant help you, but then again no one...... can they :( (wtf is a hoss?)

Uninfected batches are anecdotal evidence not definitve proof that anything is or is not a sanitizer,equipment is not sanitized by W5 it is cleaned by W5 so sorry m8 but you are wrong there,and as for no one being able to help they could if they did a little research before commenting on such. Anybody that says W5 is a sanitizer is wrong it's that simple and that includes people that write brewing books, and i f people use it as such then they are wrong too. I don't need to look for scientific paper because i actually bothered my behind to check the definition of "sanitize" and W5 and its ilk do not fit that definition.

Even Iodine is not a sanitizer if it's diluted too much, and just to prove i looked it up Iodine efficacy is most efficient at a ratio of 12.5ppm(as far as i remember), if Iodine was diluted to say 5ppm then i would no longer be a sanitizer,same with bleach,and the list goes on.

Hoss is a murican expression meaning buddy/m8/pal,meant to show i have no hard feelings and actually did not want a war of words but i hate it when people just throw around terms like sanitizer without looking into if it is or now.Home brew shops and makers of home brew products are the biggest culprits of this because they know 99% wont bother to check. ;D

The marketing of home brew products is such that people take the easy option and trust what they are being told that an item is what it says on the tin,not so in every case. ;)

what definition of the word Sanitize  are you using (EPA,IMB,FDA,USP,Pheur,WHO,ISO),please elaborate so we can establish facts.

Quote from: Covey on October 07, 2014, 07:54:42 PM

Quote from: Greg2013 on October 03, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
I hate to be the fly in the ointment again but neither Chempro (afaik)or Lidl W5 are sanitizers,they are briliant oxygen based cleaners but that is a they are is cleaners,i use the Lidl stuff myself. Starsan is a sanitizer but is not a cleaner.If you use chempro or Lidl oxy you still should use an actual sanitizer. ;D

http://www.homebrewwest.ie/chemipro-oxi-no-rinse-cleaner-sterilizer-1-kg-1628-p.asp

Despite the misleading title if you read the text you will see that Chempro is indeed a "cleaner" not a "sanitizer". To sanitize something you have to actually kill bacteria etc.,neither Lidl oxy or Chempro do this,Starsan does. ;D

In my opinion, percarbonate-based cleaners are the best choice for equipment cleaning, and Straight-A from Logic Inc., and Powder Brewery Wash (PBW) from Five Star Chemicals, Inc. are the best of them. These products combine sodium metasilicate with the percarbonate in a stable form which increases its effectivity and prevents the corrosion of metals like copper and aluminum that strong alkaline solutions can cause.

Now it does both. Depending on how soiled the equipment is use it once to de-soil and once more to sanitize. Then rinse (i rinse with cold water then hot).The only non rinse solution is vaporised H202. If you have something dripping in starsan in contact with beer of course it will contaminate it, but to what discernible level. The next time the people doing the off flavors as part of the judging they could spike some beer with it.

From Five Star Chemicals, makers of PBW:

"Cleaning Really Does Matter

As all Home Brewers know, many things that go into making great beer, including ingredients, styles, and methods. If you don't properly clean and sanitize your equipment.......

ALL BETS ARE OFF!!!!

Five Star Rules of Cleaning and Sanitizing

- You can only sanitize clean equipment.

- Dirty equipment will always contain bacteria.

- Cleaners ARE NOT sanitizers. Whether alkali or acid, cleaners should not be used as the final procedure.

- Sanitizers ARE NOT cleaners. Sanitizing is the final procedure after cleaning or on clean equipment just prior to brewing.

- Cleaning and sanitizing can be improved by time and temperature. Allowing longer contact time and/or increasing the temperature of solutions will improve the results.

- Do not overuse chemicals. "More is not better". It normally requires more water and/or higher temperatures to rinse, and may leave an unwanted residue or just cake on to the equipment. Follow the directions.

- Cleaners and sanitizers must come in contact with 100% of the soils. This means that all blind areas, such as man-way lips or racking arms, must be hand cleaned and sanitized, use of spray balls can be very effective.

- Never add water to chemicals. Always blend cleaning or sanitizing chemicals into water."


So basically Clean first (PBW, W5), rinse and Sanitise (StarSan) afterwards, before use.

Yeah its the 5 star rules I follow. PBW and Oxi to clean, Starsan to sanitise. Starsan goes a very long way if you use it properly so why not clean & sanitise. Its best for the beer.

OK W5 contains >30% Sodium percarbonate. so 30g of SPC per 100g.
100g of pure Sodium percarbonate liberates 30g of H2O2

300g of W5 in a litre (of water@20C) gives you a 3% solutions of H2O2

This solution can sanitize a plastic/steel (not aluminium) surface to acceptable levels (to produce beer which is free from contamination)

So you end up with about a 3% Hydrogen peroxide solutiuon. Thats gud enough for me maybe not you

Something amiss there, 300g is 1/3 of a tub, that amount in a litre of water would be like a paste.

I'm sure it would sanitise according to your calculations, but a very impractical and costly method to use. You're probably going to use a ton of water to rinse that concentration off aswell.

A more cost efficient way might be to use it only as a cleaner, you'd only use less than a scoop per litre, then use StarSan at 1.5ml per litre to sanitise, between them costing less than 10c rather than 80c per clean.

Not neccessarily better, but a lot cheaper to do the same job.

Is Milton any use as a sanitiser?

I use Milton for sterilizing my demis. I had a box of tablets left over from the young lads bottles, never had a problem with it. Think there is/was a link on here somewhere to the Milton web page where it lists homebrew as a purpose for it.