So I'm giving this a go next week now that all my gear has arrived, so just wondering if anyone has any comments to add. I'm aiming to keep the mash on the high side to make it a little sweeter, while having the citra flavour and aroma front and center. Also, doing a first wort on the hops, again to have more flavour and a tad less sharp bitterness.
Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 20.00 l
Boil Size: 24.77 l
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 22.88 l
Final Bottling Vol: 19.00 l
4.536 kg Pale Malt (Weyermann) (6.5 EBC) Grain 1 80.0 %
0.454 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 8.0 %
0.227 kg Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 3 4.0 %
0.227 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 4 4.0 %
0.227 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 5 4.0 %
14.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 6 21.4 IBUs
22.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 14.2 IBUs
21.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 9.9 IBUs
21.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 5.4 IBUs
21.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 10 1.2 IBUs
1.0 pkg English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [35.49 ml] Yeast 11 -
43.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
Est Original Gravity: 1.064 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.020 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.8 %
Bitterness: 52.0 IBUs
Est Color: 19.0 EBC
Mash Profile
Mash In Add 14.79 l of water at 74.6 C 66.7 C 60 min
Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 15.66l) of 75.6 C water .
Fermentation:
Temp: 19 C for 14 days, then dry hop and set to 18 for 7 days
Carb @ 2.3 Vol
Grain and hop bill looks great, though I'd be inclined to use a different yeast. IPAs should be dry and WLP002 is not going to give you a dry beer, especially at a gravity of 1.064. Would you consider US-05/WLP001?
Also, WLP002 (and highly floccing English yeasts in general) have a tendency to mute hop flavours. You might want to compensate by adding more hops.
Yup, that's intentional with the yeast. I'm aiming for a beer in the style of zombie dust, which the brewery has confirmed as using Wyeast 1968 to ferment. WLP002 is the equivalent. It's a much sweeter style of IPA, with the flavour rather than the bitterness meant to be the dominating aspect. I was also aiming to up the hop content, but I have exactly 150gm of Citra in the freezer, so the recipe is fitting that :)
It would be interesting experiment to do it with US-05 at some point as well. I see a split batch in my future.
If it turns out drinkable I'll bring it along to a meet and you can see how it compares to your usual IPA :)
Please do! Love Citra beers.
I've often seen clone recipes for Stone beer which specify WLP002 as the yeast, which has always confused me. I'm sure the results will be nice, but you're going to get a lot of body with it. WLP007 is a great yeast too, similar in flavour to WLP002 but a little more attenuation. Though I've not tried it in an American style pale ale/IPA myself.
Ever tried http://odellbrewing.com/beer/st-lupulin/ (http://odellbrewing.com/beer/st-lupulin/)? It has quite a full body and malt character, yet has all the character of the hops. It's quite a different way to doing it, but I'm a real fan. I'm really hoping this will turn out to have a similar profile.
If not, well, it's going to be a fun experiment :D
I've had it and thought it was good, but I suspect it might not have been a fresh bottle I had. I seem to remember expecting a bit more bitterness. Something along the lines of Hoptimum.
Incidentally, I had a fresh bottle of Hoptimum recently and didn't think it was as impressive as last years..
Yeah, it's def. not bitter, which I think is the point for it as a style of American PA/IPA. Personally I love it, but not to everyone's tastes for sure. I think this will turn out closer to that, but can't wait to see what will happen now.
I'm sure @Rossa or someone would be able say exactly what sort of style beer it is :)
St. Lupulin is an "Extra Pale Ale" as opposed to an IPA, as is Zombie Dust AFAIK. The idea being to sit between PA and IPA a bit.
Let us know how the brew turns out Molc, I've had that Zombie Dust recipe sitting round for ages and after getting a big bag of citra recently from Tube I think I might give it a go in the new year.
A bit of googling and it turns out they call it an American Pale Ale, http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php#1a (http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php#1a), so while it's hoppy, it's not really an IPA at all. I've updated the title to reflect and not cause any confusion.
I'll let ye know how it turns out.
I've seen it described as both in different places.
I haven't had ZD but I definitely think the St' Lupulin tastes more like a pale ale than an IPA to me.
I made a Zombie Dust clone a few months ago and thought it was delicious.
I'd up your dry hop portion. I used the Safale 04 English Ale yeast.
Recipe below
Fermentable Colour lb: oz Grams Ratio
Pale Malt 5 EBC 11 lbs. 0.4 oz 5000 grams 84.7%
Munich Malt 20 EBC 1 lbs. 1.6 oz 500 grams 8.5%
Crystal Malt, Pale 60 EBC 0 lbs. 7.0 oz 200 grams 3.4%
Carapils 4.5 EBC 0 lbs. 7.0 oz 200 grams 3.4%
Hop Variety Type Alpha Time lb: oz grams Ratio
Citra Whole 14.7 % FWH 0 lbs. 0.7 oz 21 grams 8.4%
Citra Whole 14.7 % 15 mins 0 lbs. 1.2 oz 35 grams 13.9%
Citra Whole 14.7 % 10 mins 0 lbs. 1.2 oz 35 grams 13.9%
Citra Whole 14.7 % 5 mins 0 lbs. 1.2 oz 35 grams 13.9%
Citra Whole 14.7 % 0 mins 0 lbs. 1.2 oz 35 grams 13.9%
CitraDryHop Whole 14.7 % 0 mins 0 lbs. 3.2 oz 90 grams 35.9%
As someone who's now on my 2nd pound of Citra in 2 years, my advice is not to use Citra for bittering; it can get very unpleasant if you use too much as a bittering addition.
-Also, why waste those delicious and expensive hops early in the boil when you won't even be able to taste their contribution?
More and more I'm moving my hoppy beers to ONLY have huge late hop additions or else I just use Nugget (or a new hop that I try but don't like) as bittering additions and save my precious Citra and NZ varieties for late kettle / dry hop additions.
I think I'm slowly moving in the direction of the best IPA makers which is towards using only hop extract for bittering, making EXTREMELY pale grists, focus on low FG during mashing, and add loads of late, whirlpool and dry hop additions only. -There's a reason the highest rated IPA end up there. Even the East Coast guys are slowly getting converted to using hop extract for bittering additions and removing almost all crystal malts from the malt bill.
See: Heady Topper and any of the newer Pliny recipes.
Adam
Quote from: Qs on December 11, 2014, 01:40:22 PM
St. Lupulin is an "Extra Pale Ale" as opposed to an IPA, as is Zombie Dust AFAIK. The idea being to sit between PA and IPA a bit.
Let us know how the brew turns out Molc, I've had that Zombie Dust recipe sitting round for ages and after getting a big bag of citra recently from Tube I think I might give it a go in the new year.
Like usual the lines are blurred and any lines you draw are stepping on real life examples. Making style guidelines is sort of like beer racism...
"Extra Pale Ale" means just that-focusing on very light color. But you can clearly see that the trend started with the West Coast IPAs which really avoid any crystal or other malts that would darken the wort / increase the FG. "Extra Pale Ale", which is not a style, could just as easily be called "West Coast Pale Ale".
I'm fully in the West Coast IPA camp these days and I want both the malt and the yeast to just get out of the way of the hops; I also want a focus on FLAVOR / AROMA EXPLOSION but with a more reduced, mellow bitterness.
On the Pale Ale front, I like them to be more balanced between malt and hops so I like the grists to include some speciality malt.
(If I'm honest though what I REALLY LIKE are "India Session Ales" which given the strengths that they normally come in are really just "Extra Pale Ales" with HUGE late hop additions.) -I want that 4-5% ABV, low to medium levels of bitterness (perception; IBUs mean nothing to me) and HUGE hop aroma with a 2 row only (or 2 row + carapils or wheat malt to aid head retention). -These are my favorite beers all year long.
Adam
Totally agree re paler being better and dropping crystal or similar for hoppy beers. Double irish is a great example of this at the moment.
Kernel double citra is probably the best hoppy beer Ive ever had. Better than pliny imo. Kernel citra is 1 malt & 1 hop afaik. No faff, trim the fat etc.
Some notes from Kernel via Matthew Dick:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_cz54adDEInaHZyOHpzc1V4YzVhNWdYd25uSWtGM1JJVWRN/view?usp=sharing
Ive seen a recipe of theirs on another forum which was got from a screen shot of a video at their brewery. I think the grist is simpsons best pale ale with some simpsons low colour marris otter. Not 100% marris otter like the recipe notes in the above link. Hope this helps.
Quote from: biertourist on December 11, 2014, 11:19:59 PM
Like usual the lines are blurred and any lines you draw are stepping on real life examples. Making style guidelines is sort of like beer racism...
Amen, off-topic (sorry) but I was looking at the 2008 BJCP Belgian Blonde guidelines last night - and if you look at them as a "bulls eye" to hit in a competition, and in fairness even Gordon Strong says that's what they are - they're fine. If you look at them as a meaningful description of pale coloured Belgian beer they're nonsense: they exclude all of the pale, sub 8% Belgian beers I like - on one pretext or another - and most of the ones I hate as well. :D
Yeah when I look at styles, it's more of a case of wanting to be able to hit the style guide with a recipe so I know I'm able too and have developed that skill, rather than aiming to create it perfectly every time.
I look at the style guidelines the way I look at graphic design, you need to know the rules to break them effectively.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on December 12, 2014, 12:11:09 AM
Kernel double citra is probably the best hoppy beer Ive ever had. Better than pliny imo. Kernel citra is 1 malt & 1 hop afaik. No faff, trim the fat etc.
Some notes from Kernel via Matthew Dick:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_cz54adDEInaHZyOHpzc1V4YzVhNWdYd25uSWtGM1JJVWRN/view?usp=sharing
Ive seen a recipe of theirs on another forum which was got from a screen shot of a video at their brewery. I think the grist is simpsons best pale ale with some simpsons low colour marris otter. Not 100% marris otter like the recipe notes in the above link. Hope this helps.
My IPAs are all becoming simple malt IPAs. I like the complexity of at least 2 hops and right now I'm experimenting with a series of "Centennial+ something else" IPAs. The malt and mashing side of these recipes is so crazy easy; it's the hop separation that's painful. That's why I'm hoping to switch to hop extract for bittering and I've asked for a HUGE hop spider for Christmas that can deal with pellet hops.
-This series of beers is really helping me to tweak my system so that it can deal with even the most insane of hop bills.
I LOVE "brewing for a purpose" and focusing 3-5 beers in a row on a common theme -I learn so much about that type of beer, the ingredients involved and the important parts of my system that need to be improved to make brewing them easier. -It helps evolve my brewery equipment and processes more rapidly, I think.
I think I'm going to rotate between these super hoppy IPAs and low gravity lagers as obviously each one is at the extreme end of the spectrum. I've gotten very good at avoiding ANY astringency in light colored lower gravity beers now, my lager processes are pretty good but they're extremely wasteful. I waste so much beer when I brew lagers and I'm hoping that some of the tweaks that I make to my system for dealing with hop separation can be modified to help with separating beer from trub because minimizing trub is really important in the lager tradition and in keeping fermentations neutral.
-My whirpool keggle is pretty good at leaving behind the hop pellet crud and with my hop spider I think I'll have hop pellet crud completely under control, but the whirlpool keggle's side outlet also means that I leave behind LOTS of beer (up to 4 liters). I think I might have to get a more traditional dip tube fitting for for keg's outlet and place it under a fine mesh false bottom to get more liquid out. This will obviously reduce the efficiency of my whirlpool recirculation but
I can make an INSANE whirlpool by supplementing it with my mash paddle inserted into my cordless drill on the fast setting. To anyone wanting a whirlpool for settling OR for increasing the performance of your immersion chiller, I can't recommend it highly enough. A sanitized plastic mash paddle inserted into a cordless drill makes an INSANELY POWERFUL whirlpool and dramatically decreases the time (and water quantity) necessary to chill. -I know water quantity / cost is a sensitive issue, but regardless of whether you're paying for it, you should conserve it and this technique really does help.
P.S. For those of you who like doing whirlpool hop additions or "hop stands" simply turn the water on to your chiller and turn on your cordless drill with the mash paddle inserted until you get the wort down to 140f (sorry: 60C), then stop your whirl pooling and turn off your water and time your hop stand. Isomerization and extraction of hop oils will take longer at this lower temperature but now you're rapidly below the DMS formation danger zone. -Good idea if you're using lager malts/ pilsner malts anyway; with Pale malt as a base malt probably not such a big deal.
Adam
Quote from: Qs on December 12, 2014, 10:17:39 AM
I look at the style guidelines the way I look at graphic design, you need to know the rules to break them effectively.
+Eleventy Million!
LOVE this quote!
Adam
@Adam - the hop spider is the best thing since sliced bread. It keeps almost all pellet hop debris out of the wort & still allows for full hop utilization. It doesnt effect your boil either. In my experience I use less gas as the boil seems more violent with the spider in the kettle.
Pic of mine post boil & post 30 min hop stand: (I whip mine out then for recirc & chilling)
(http://i.imgur.com/dIRlEjK.jpg)
Hop debris contained inside the spider after 60 min boil with 10.5% boil off (a good strong boil):
(http://i.imgur.com/FnjqrAH.jpg)
200 grams of hop pellet debris that was in the spider:
(http://i.imgur.com/OYhp2YS.jpg)
One thing Id recommend is to put a wee bazooka tube in also to keep the break material out of your pumps. Ive a little one running along the wall of my kettle. Keeps my pumps clog free.
(http://i.imgur.com/RXlanPY.jpg)
Re: your beer losses - Its not waste if you think the wort is not worth saving. I leave 10 litres behind in my kettle. Its a 100 litres & 10 litres is only the bottom inch & half. Its always full of break material so not worth saving. Sometimes Il drain it for starter wort if I need some. You can always adjust your recipe to account for the losses & brew that little bit more.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on December 13, 2014, 07:40:33 PM
@Adam - the hop spider is the best thing since sliced bread. It keeps almost all pellet hop debris out of the wort & still allows for full only marginally reduced hop utilization.
There fixed that for you.
Hop spiders, ESPECIALLY when the top sticks far out of the surface of boiling wort act as giant heat sinks that pull heat out of the inside of the hop spider and free it into the air. -Measure the temp inside the main part of your kettle and inside the hop spider- you'll find at LEAST a 3 degree F difference. Below boiling you DO have a reduction in utilization, but we're homebrewers so increasing the amount of hops by 3% isn't a big deal. (Plus by using pellets you've already got a significant utilization increase vs. whole hops.)
-On the residual hop debris that makes it into the kettle still, I've got a whirlpool kettle and I'm still going to whirlpool after removing the hop spider from the boil kettle so that should deal with that well enough. (hopefully...)
Adam