I'm going to make a small beer tomorrow so yesterday I had a go at culturing up some (hopefully) lactobacillus from some pale malt for my first sour beer attempt.
I mashed pale malt on my hob to 1.035, boiled for 5 mins, put it into a sanitised bottle with about 30g uncrushed malt and squeezed out all the air (as lacto thrives anaerobically and acetobactar needs air).
I've done OK in keeping it between 30 and 40 degrees since, as the internet tells me this is the temp that lacto grows best in. This picture attached is the bottle after about 14 hours, all the gas in there has been created spontaneously.
https://dyp.im/ODY5C3slko
The grain bill is going to be just pale malt and possibly some crystal because I have no wheat to make a Berliner weisse.
Yeast wise, I have some interesting options:
US-05
Belle saison dried yeast
Dry English ale
Brett trois
Current thoughts on this is to take a demijohn of wort and spike with the lacto and ferment the rest with belle saison, mixing the two at a later date. I have no experience with Brett and keeping in mind other people than me will be drinking this, I may leave out the Brett. (Unless someone convinces me).
I'm making this up as I go along so all thoughts welcome!
I'm just back from Galway, might return your stirplate during the week instead. Yes, it is your Brett but I hear it may not actually be Brett at all!
What are you doing differently with yours?
25 hours after pitch the space where I squeezed air out of the bottle has nearly been fully filled by the gas from fermentation. Was a bit too cautious, could have added more wort without the risk of an explosion it seems.
https://dumpyourphoto.com/photo/m61vB4FbKB
Also picked up some torriffied yeast so it will now be more like a Berliner weisse.
I used the big conical so far, worked like a charm.
I did a lacto experiment a few weeks back.
Mashed as formal then dropped to 45c with a handful of fresh grain and left / mentioned temp for 2 days. Results are quite good. Nice and tart. Hopped mine with sorachi ace. It's luke lemon curd :)
Did you boil it after leaving it for two days Nigel?
I did. About 2 grs of hops at 60 just for preservatives and a load of sorach ace at flame out. It's actually quite refreshing.
PH of the lacto starter between 3.5 and 4 and no gas created since last night. Not sure if I heat sterilised the bottle on the radiator. Should I add more grain to it or is it finished, anyone know?
PH reading in the link
https://dumpyourphoto.com/photo/JXg1jpjrjB
Got a better ph meter in the morning and retested the starter, pH 3.7 . Its all tucked into bed now, have changed the plan to now sour in the kettle covered with cling film and I'll boil in a day or 2 depending on the pH. Have put 500mls into the freezer to make a small starter for the saison yeast to help it out when the time comes. OG 1.030
https://dumpyourphoto.com/photo/VTjGtsWvC1
Forgot to say, I only did a 5min boil with no hops, was a long day brewing so wasn't bothered complicating it anymore.
PH 4.1 this morning and 3.8 this evening. Doesn't taste very sour at this point.
Forget the ph readings. They really mean nothing in my experience as tart/sour threshold is a personal preference. Let it go til its as tart as you want & then finish it out with wyeast saison yeast. That'll get it to 1.005. Belle saison wont work in low ph. Ive tried. Neither will european ale yeast as suggested by Jamil. Wyeast is your only man for the really sour.
If you only do a mild lacto beer around 3.5ph & above then any yeast will do to finish out.
Ive had to let my all acid malt souring berliners go as long as 5 days kettle souring to get the level of sourness I wanted.
Ive pitched mixed lab cultures along with acid malt & they've gone super sour in 2 days. Maybe its the battle for supremacy between all the lacto strains that worked in my favour on that berliner.
Ive kept all mine at 40c for the souring, & have heated them back to 40c when they've dropped below & had no ill effects. So dont be afraid to turn on the element in your vessel to bring the temp back up.
I found us-05 took a long time to get going in the sour. A lot longer then in a normal ph beer.
I really have to pick up a ph meter for these. I found as tart as a sample tastes, by the time it's fermented out its gonna be considerably dryer. As far as reproducing and conductance goes I'll be going down the record ph and note results way.
Maybe after a few batches it'll become second nature.
I take them throughout my process but I dont bother using them to determine when I boil to stop the souring. Way better off going by taste & use your palate to get what YOU want from the beer tartness wise. For example shooting for recommended pH on Jamils berliner recipe wasnt near sour enough & that was with a commercial pitch of lacto... Proper temp etc. They only seem to recommend a PH to shoot for as they are pitching a sacch strain that will struggle in a low PH. Its geared towards the sacch strain instead of the tartness that you want.
If you use wyeast saison you dont have to worry about PH so much & can let it fly to the sourness you want.
It hadn't budged from 3.8 this morning so I put a heating mat around it and threw in another handful of grain. The level of tartness of the starter is what I would like for this one, so 3.7ph ish, but I'll keep tasting. The belle season yeast should then finish it fairly dry.
I was trying to research what was the lowest pH that belle saison yeast can ferment in, didn't find anything conclusive. Tom, did your experimentation show anything interesting about it?
The German Ale strain has proven to be able to deal with quite low pH -treat the yeast well and remember that the rapid change in pH shocks it just like rapid changes in gravity or temperature; so slowly add some of the base beer to your rehydration water / starter.
-Good thing you used a mixed Bret culture because genetic testing has now shown that Brett Trois isn't actually Bret at all, but just a tropical-accentuating saccromyces strain.
Adam
It is down to 3.7 this evening and the whole kitchen smelled like youghurt. Had a taste just there and it was nice and refreshing but I would like it more tart. Its getting boiled tomorrow evening regardless.
Adam, I didn't see anyone online saying to blend in the acidic wort with the starter, though the thought had crossed my mind. I've pulled off 300ml to blend into the 500ml starter over the next 24 hours.
Pic is daddy starter with baby starter.
https://dumpyourphoto.com/photo/Z8rOV340iq
Ensuring a good blanket of CO2 was also a good move for many reasons. Most of the enteric bacteria that can produce the super disgusting smells and significant toxins require the presence of oxygen so a good CO2 blanket is good protection for really letting the lacto do it's thing while simultaneously restricting the growth of the bacteria that you don't want.
For what it's worth, Omega Yeast now sell a commercial heterofermentative lacto strain that's ideal for making berlinerweiss or other lacto-only sour beers. Most lacto strains are homo fermentative and can only consume glucose/dextrose but heterofermentative strains can ferment the whole suite of wort sugars and can therefore be used on their own for lacto-only fermentations that result in more tartness. The Omega strain is also highly alcohol tolerant, but I don't believe that it's very hop tolerant (shouldn't be a surprise there).
Adam
Is the heterogeneous one you mention just lactobacillus brevis? It's hetero and hop tolerant I believe.
WLP 677 is heterofermentive as well. Although I've always used it with S-33.
White Labs 672 Lacto Brevis is heterofermentative too, took 1:062 wort down to 1:012 in 36 hours, PH was 3.7 and lightly tart, but, just where I wanted it. The had it in The Home Brew Company.
Has anyone tried using "cheese makers" freeze dried cultures like lactoferm to sour wort.they sell them in homebrewwest.
I thought about it, but (at the risk of being repetitive) I've been very happy with WLP 677 on the few German sours I've done - as long as you only use a nominal amount of hops.
Wondering what kind of pH meters you guys are using? Also any suggestions for a cheap small co2 source for flushing the kettle?
I just got a basic pH meter from Amazon. I kegged up this beer on Sunday and tested the pH again with my own meter, it was at 3.8 again. Tastes great, there's a corn/grain flavour off it which is not unpleasant. Overall I'm really delighted with it. I would try to go a bit more tart next time.
Cheap co2 source?
Fermenting beer?
Other than that you are into either sodasteeam, S40 our regular CO2 cylinders.