National Homebrew Club Ireland

Brewing Discussions => Extract Brewing => Topic started by: shweeney on February 12, 2015, 03:36:46 PM

Title: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: shweeney on February 12, 2015, 03:36:46 PM
Put on a beer the other night using spraymalt, the first hop addition was at 50 mins so I did a 50 min total boil.

Seeing as this first hop is just for bittering, could I use hop extract instead and just start from from the first flavour hop addition (so a 20 minute boil in this case)?

Or does the long boil actually affect the malt extract as well.  One effect is that the beer ends up darker, which in this case was a negative as I'm trying to make a blonde (I've read about adding some of the extract later in the boil to counteract this, but why not shorten the boil altogether?)
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: armedcor on February 12, 2015, 03:56:50 PM
I don't think it's necessary I'd probably just boil it long enough to sterilise it with the hop extract if bitterness is all that's required.

I could be completely wrong though.
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: nigel_c on February 12, 2015, 04:18:46 PM
One of out lads in the NCB is working on this. He does the same as you. Bitters with extract and then boils for only the length of the last hop addition. Partial boil and top up (which also is chill) with water and done.
I had the beer. Was the first attempt and was pretty good. A bit thin but nothing that cant be fixed.
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: shweeney on February 12, 2015, 04:24:31 PM
cool - I've just bought a lot of hops but might consider that as a future experiment - if you're knocking 40 minutes off the brew time without compromising the beer, great...

I found some discussion of this on HomeBrewTalk, nobody seems to have a convincing explanation for the long boil beyond "that's what we've always done" or " thats what the commercial boys do" both of which have (apparently) been shown to be weak arguments in other areas.
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: nigel_c on February 12, 2015, 05:03:08 PM
You wont get the caramelization of the wort. For some recipes you need this. Should be good for nice simple pale ales.
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: molc on February 12, 2015, 05:33:59 PM
Also a longer boil helps to remove dms, though I'm not sure if this is an issue for extract.
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: shweeney on February 12, 2015, 10:03:59 PM
Quote from: molc on February 12, 2015, 05:33:59 PM
Also a longer boil helps to remove dms, though I'm not sure if this is an issue for extract.

I'm not an expert, but anything I've read suggests it's not an issue for anything other than pilsner malt.
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: molc on February 12, 2015, 10:57:21 PM
Ahh didn't know that. Everydays a school day :)
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: Bubbles on February 13, 2015, 09:10:58 AM
Quote from: shweeney on February 12, 2015, 03:36:46 PM
Put on a beer the other night using spraymalt, the first hop addition was at 50 mins so I did a 50 min total boil.

Seeing as this first hop is just for bittering, could I use hop extract instead and just start from from the first flavour hop addition (so a 20 minute boil in this case)?

Or does the long boil actually affect the malt extract as well.  One effect is that the beer ends up darker, which in this case was a negative as I'm trying to make a blonde (I've read about adding some of the extract later in the boil to counteract this, but why not shorten the boil altogether?)

It will do nothing other than darken your extract (and your beer). A 10 minute boil is all that is needed to sanitise. The only concern is, as you've said, getting enough bitterness to balance the malt. You can use hop extract, but it's not the only way. Depending on the style of beer you're doing, using lots of hops during the 10 min boil will give you enough IBUs. It's hop-bursting, essentially.

The Basic brewing guys did a podcast on this topic, have a look.

Quote from: molc on February 12, 2015, 05:33:59 PM
Also a longer boil helps to remove dms, though I'm not sure if this is an issue for extract.

It's not. Brewing grade malt extract has already been through a full-wort boil, eliminating the need for anything other than a 10 minute boil to sanitise.

The long boil is done to volatilize DMS precursors, not DMS itself. It's needed for all malts, not just pilsner malt. Though pilsner malt is more susceptible to it because it's more lightly kilned than "regular" pale malt. Hence why you often see recipes involving pilsner malt specify a 90 min boil instead of 60 min.
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: molc on February 13, 2015, 09:30:45 AM
Well, that clearly explains that one. I was reading Brewing Classic Styles and had seen they used 90 minute boils for some recipes, citing DMS. Now I understand why.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: Beej on March 04, 2015, 11:15:37 AM
I racked  a 'stout' I made recently from spare bits and bobs off the trub and into another bucket last night as I'd boiled hops separately (no boil for the LME and DME I used) and not in bags and had a bit of debris from the sieve. It's been in Primary two weeks. Was surprised at the odour though. Not sure if it's hops, DMS or the belgian chocolate overdone (I used a blender as my crushing bags tore.) Smells like strong olive oil, quite herby, tasted really coffee-ish,  not very dark in colour. I've read contrasting things about DMS and boiling/not boiling/temps. This was an experimental no boil batch. (1.5kg 'normal' LME 1kg DME dark, 350g sugar, carapils 300g belgian chocolate 300g both steeped @60 for an hour, cascade 30g 60 mins EK  Goldings 20 and flameout. Bulldog workhorse yeast I think it was called) So, is it DMS (no 'boiled cabbage smell) or have a overdone the hops with the leaf left in for a fortnight or have I ruined it from the chocolate 'milling'? (wasn't overly done, just pulsed it a bit and stored here and there for even finish, looked alright but not used dark steeping malt before.) I was thinking about 'diluting' it a bit when I batch prime? Advice please! Don't want my first drain-pour. Thanks
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: Greg2013 on March 04, 2015, 12:32:02 PM
So the question is where do you get hop extract for bittering and what one is best ? ;D
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: TheSumOfAllBeers on March 04, 2015, 12:49:52 PM
You can make hop extract for bittering on your stove top. Just boil your hops in some wort or DME. Quite easy to store too and if you do your calculations right, you might have a convenient source of IBUs that are easy to add into kits or beers that came out too low on IBUs otherwise
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: Greg2013 on March 04, 2015, 01:12:13 PM
Quote from: TheSumOfAllBeers on March 04, 2015, 12:49:52 PM
You can make hop extract for bittering on your stove top. Just boil your hops in some wort or DME. Quite easy to store too and if you do your calculations right, you might have a convenient source of IBUs that are easy to add into kits or beers that came out too low on IBUs otherwise

Maybe down the line but tbh i would rather just buy it to try first. ;D
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: TheSumOfAllBeers on March 04, 2015, 01:36:31 PM
The product you are looking for is called Isomerised Hop Extract. It works very well, adding a uniform bitterness to a beer when properly dosed.

It is not to be confused with finishing hop extracts, which are used to add aroma and flavour. Those products are a little bit more variable in their success rates. There are US products that work very well, but they are really hard to get.
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: Dunkel on March 04, 2015, 03:11:06 PM
http://www.homebrewwest.ie/hop-extract-isomerised-6-100-ml-1568-p.asp
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: Greg2013 on March 04, 2015, 07:38:16 PM
Quote from: Dunkel on March 04, 2015, 03:11:06 PM
http://www.homebrewwest.ie/hop-extract-isomerised-6-100-ml-1568-p.asp

Cheers for that Dunkel. ;D
Title: Re: Long boil - is it necessary
Post by: Boycott on March 04, 2015, 09:05:32 PM
I did a 30min all citra a few weeks ago, looking forward to trying it this weekend.