I came across this technique in the past while and decided to give it a go.
Essentially you wet your malt before running out through your mill.
Why? To keep husks intact and provide a better grain bed, reducing the risk of a stuck sparge.
2% Water by weight sprayed on the uncrushed malt, then wait 20-30 mins. (i.e. 5kg grist - 100ml water)
The resulting crush will contain fuller hulls.
Quite possibly there is no need for oat hulls or the like if you do this, and far less risk of a stuck sparge.
No stuck sparge, just a stuck roller mill! ;)
I'd heard about this but I buy crushed, so not an option for me. Would it work as well with wheat and rye, John, the traditional stickers?
I will be doing this tomorrow for the first time. Will report back as well.
I saw somewhere someone suggesting to use a spray bottle for applying the water, better distribution was the reasoning
http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/07/11/conditioned-and-wet-grain-milling-for-beer/
http://byo.com/hops/item/1987-conditioned-milling
Sounds interesting, would one of these work
http://www.powercity.ie/?par=60-52-14453
No need to steam it. All the the articles suggest adding 2% water by weight to the grain. So if my calculations are right for a 3kg for example grain bill you would use 60ml of water. Just put it in a spray bottle and evenly coat the grain. There's a lot of good videos on the subject.
Did it reduce the dust?
Our old rule of thumb was to take a handful of malt at the sample point after the conditioner and squeeze it in your hand, then open your hand as though to shake hands with someone. If some grains stick to your hand then it's conditioned enough, if none stick it's too dry and if it forms a ball it's too wet. In reality it should be just slightly damp, but not really noticeably damp if that makes sense. Make sure to clean your mill well afterwards as any damp grist left behind could harbour moulds which could infect your next brew.
Just finished up my brew day today. I conditioned for the first time. Sprayed my malt with 2% by weight with water which ended up being about 99ml.
Ended up with a much fuller mash tun than normal. Tbh i wasn't sure if I'd even crushed the grain when I looked at it first but everything was cracked it just left the hulls much more intact than usual. Sparging was a breeze also, the liquor just flowed through. I used a pretty tight crush as well about 0.035
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt335/Zippy_Flippy/IMG_20150331_112029.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/Zippy_Flippy/media/IMG_20150331_112029.jpg.html)
Quote from: armedcor on March 31, 2015, 05:42:07 PM
Just finished up my brew day today. I conditioned for the first time. Sprayed my malt with 2% by weight with water which ended up being about 99ml.
Ended up with a much fuller mash tun than normal. Tbh i wasn't sure if I'd even crushed the grain when I looked at it first but everything was cracked it just left the hulls much more intact than usual. Sparging was a breeze also, the liquor just flowed through. I used a pretty tight crush as well about 0.035
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt335/Zippy_Flippy/IMG_20150331_112029.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/Zippy_Flippy/media/IMG_20150331_112029.jpg.html)
Any improvement in efficiency?
My efficency out of the mash tun was about 80% that's with constant recirculation no sparge. My last brew was about 75%
Good stuff, that's a pretty good return for adding 1 extra step.
Yep I'm pretty happy with it! Will definitely continue doing it.
Were you using the same roller gap for the 75% efficiency brews? A tighter gap can up the efficiency and at the same time lower the attenuation limit (final gravity)
Just remember that not many grain mills use stainless rollers!
need I say more?
Same gap width.
Will the amount of water used is quite tiny. I was slightly concerned about rusting etc but after conditioning and letting stand for 10 minutes I wasn't overly worried. The texture of the malt definitely felt different but it definitely wasn't wet etc.
Quote from: armedcor on March 31, 2015, 05:42:07 PM
Just finished up my brew day today. I conditioned for the first time. Sprayed my malt with 2% by weight with water which ended up being about 99ml.
Ended up with a much fuller mash tun than normal. Tbh i wasn't sure if I'd even crushed the grain when I looked at it first but everything was cracked it just left the hulls much more intact than usual. Sparging was a breeze also, the liquor just flowed through. I used a pretty tight crush as well about 0.035
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt335/Zippy_Flippy/IMG_20150331_112029.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/Zippy_Flippy/media/IMG_20150331_112029.jpg.html)
Exactly! Done correctly!
I was getting a bit scared for a while. I malt condition 100% of my beers this way using the "2% by weight" rule and using a spray bottle to apply. It is actually an insanely small quantity of water and you want to mix thoroughly and let it sit for at least 10 min before crushing.
The crush is just like in the photo - INSANELY intact husks that almost look like they're uncrushed sometimes. No more rice hulls for me!
Malt conditioning also helps reduce the extraction of tannins from husks for low gravity beers or when using grainy German Pilsner malt. -I wouldn't make a Kolsh without malt conditioning, personally. --This is one of the primary differences between professional grade mills and home brew / low cost micro brewery mills- professional grade mills have all sets of rollers linked together and driven at the same speed which minimizes friction and tearing / shredding of the grain husk material; home brew and cheap micro brewery mills just use friction between the grain and the 2 rollers to turn the 2nd non-powered roller this frictional force tends to shred the husk which makes a higher risk of stuck sparge and tannin extraction -the faster you spin those rollers the more frictional force and the more intense the shreding. --Malt conditioning reduces / eliminates this issue as the husk becomes more flexible and doesn't get shredded.
Adam
Quote from: Will_D on March 31, 2015, 09:08:49 PM
Just remember that not many grain mills use stainless rollers!
need I say more?
Yes, you need to say much more. There is a difference between "wet milling" or steam milling that introduces much more water and requires stainless rollers and malt conditioning with 50ml - 100ml of water that is just lightly sprinkled onto the outside of the grain.
Dublin's high humidity air probably exposes far more moisture to your rollers than malt conditioning.
Adam
Quote from: armedcor on March 31, 2015, 08:14:52 PM
My efficency out of the mash tun was about 80% that's with constant recirculation no sparge. My last brew was about 75%
Feel free to tighten up the gap. By malt conditioning you can safely close the gap on your mill - you'll get higher efficiency and reduced risk of stuck mash / sparge and tannin extraction.
Malt condition == WIN especially for only a 10 - 15 min increase in your brew day; none if you do it the night before the brew day.
I've malt conditioned about 15 beers in a row now; the only time I don't is when I buy special base malt and crush at the home brew shop because I don't want a 50lb sack of that particular base malt. -I'm at 84-88% efficiency depending upon the recipe and batch size and that's with single infusion, single batch sparge and only a little recirculation.
I'm probably going to malt condition for life.
Adam
I was going to start a Topic on how to reduce the level of moisture in your grain, I had left a bag of pale malt and stout malt in the shed (bought last Aug) as i was working my way through what i had in house. so i open the bag last week to find the moisture is high but with no mold or anything but you def notice when your crushing it and like the pictures above wasn't sure if it was crushed at all. I use BIAB so the husk shape doesn't bother me. I feel like i need to dry the grain to make sure it doesn't get worse or go moldy. Has any one any opinion on it
Quote from: Covey on April 02, 2015, 06:51:08 AM
I was going to start a Topic on how to reduce the level of moisture in your grain, I had left a bag of pale malt and stout malt in the shed (bought last Aug) as i was working my way through what i had in house. so i open the bag last week to find the moisture is high but with no mold or anything but you def notice when your crushing it and like the pictures above wasn't sure if it was crushed at all. I use BIAB so the husk shape doesn't bother me. I feel like i need to dry the grain to make sure it doesn't get worse or go moldy. Has any one any opinion on it
I'd be a little wary of malt thats been damp for a while. Theres a musty tasting/smelling compound called 2,4,6,trichloroanisole with a very strong flavour that won't just ruin your beer, it could ruin your whole system as its very difficult to get rid of.
Moist malt for 7 months in a damp shed is not the same as conditioning malt 20 mins before your mash.
ok there goes 50kg of malt to the sheep out the back :(
Quote from: johnrm on April 02, 2015, 08:20:33 AM
Moist malt for 7 months in a damp shed is not the same as conditioning malt 20 mins before your mash.
I know
Quote from: biertourist on April 01, 2015, 11:18:18 PM
Quote from: Will_D on March 31, 2015, 09:08:49 PM
Just remember that not many grain mills use stainless rollers!
need I say more?
Yes, you need to say much more. There is a difference between "wet milling" or steam milling that introduces much more water and requires stainless rollers and malt conditioning with 50ml - 100ml of water that is just lightly sprinkled onto the outside of the grain.
Dublin's high humidity air probably exposes far more moisture to your rollers than malt conditioning.
Adam
Glad you posted this Adam, I wonder how many brewers will miss this post and over wet the grain?
Even with stainless rollers, the rest of the mill is usually not stainless.
So please do not put "wet" grain through our new Bulldog mill (or any other mill). There is no need since the two rollers are connected so that there is no shear force on the grain.
I've no idea how you would dry a mill after wetting it, it could potentially even seize up. The Bulldog mills, Brewferm mills, and any other mill would all be destroyed by wet grain. I'm just a bit concerned that some brewers will use too much water and destroy their mills.
Quote from: HomeBrewWest on April 03, 2015, 11:38:31 AM
Quote from: biertourist on April 01, 2015, 11:18:18 PM
Quote from: Will_D on March 31, 2015, 09:08:49 PM
Just remember that not many grain mills use stainless rollers!
need I say more?
Yes, you need to say much more. There is a difference between "wet milling" or steam milling that introduces much more water and requires stainless rollers and malt conditioning with 50ml - 100ml of water that is just lightly sprinkled onto the outside of the grain.
Dublin's high humidity air probably exposes far more moisture to your rollers than malt conditioning.
Adam
Glad you posted this Adam, I wonder how many brewers will miss this post and over wet the grain?
Even with stainless rollers, the rest of the mill is usually not stainless.
So please do not put "wet" grain through our new Bulldog mill (or any other mill). There is no need since the two rollers are connected so that there is no shear force on the grain.
I've no idea how you would dry a mill after wetting it, it could potentially even seize up. The Bulldog mills, Brewferm mills, and any other mill would all be destroyed by wet grain. I'm just a bit concerned that some brewers will use too much water and destroy their mills.
Totally, agree. "Wet milling" is a thing, but wholly inappropriate for home brewing and definitely wholly inappropriate for non-stainless mills. -Wet Milling also isn't the same as "malt conditioning" which is just spraying 2% moisture by weight over the surface of the grain, mixing well and letting it sit for 10-20 minutes.
Adam
I did a less exact version of this myself and it worked great for the pale malt part of the grain bill. Big trouble though when I crushed the caramel/chocolate and roast barley, it caked itself to the rollers like cement and I ended up chewing the cog teeth a bit {as they're plastic}.
So just a word of warning, use the torque setting on your drill.
Sounds like the grain was too wet. Definitely shouldn't haven't caked to the rollers.
What Mill has plastic cogs?
the cog that connects the two rollers on the bulldog is plastic
I would have expected more for the price of them
Aye well, we live and learn, the mill is still usable, I just want to alert other people as inexperienced as meself.
Quote from: LordEoin on July 29, 2015, 12:21:00 AM
I would have expected more for the price of them
Eoin, these mills were tested for a year and redesigned several times. There are other mills out there with rubber bands connecting the rollers! Most don't connect them at all.
The plastic coupling has been heavily tested with hundreds of kilos crushed and it is an excellent and proven solution. Like any hobby mill, these shouldn't be used by a microbrewery for crushing tons of grain. But they should last as lifetime during normal use.
Bar the initial tight screw issue (we now loosen the screw before shipping), we haven't had a single problem with these mills. And we have sold over 100 of them.
At 100 euros, we think they are incredible value. There are still a couple available at 99.95 euros here:
http://www.homebrewwest.ie/bulldog-malt-mill-best-value-adjustable-roller-mill-by-a-mile-plus-malt-bucket-special-4883-p.asp
Been reading this thread for a while now and tried this process of conditioning the malt for the 1st time this evening. All of my previous crush attempts using my drill and mill have been mediocre at best and terrible at worst. After adding around 100grams of water to around 4.5KG of grain from a spray bottle I mixed the grain by hand and then let it rest for twenty minutes. I must admit to being delighted by results. The grain looked like sugar puffs and while there was fair bit of flour (not a surprise given 45% of the grain was wheat) the majority of the grains were pretty much intact. I will definitely be adding this step to my brew going forwardsl.
Shanna
Nice one. It really makes a lovely difference to the malt. Especially good if you're recirculating with a pump etc.
Quote from: armedcor on August 02, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
Nice one. It really makes a lovely difference to the malt. Especially good if you're recirculating with a pump etc.
Have to say it also put to bed the problem I have been having with mill & my drill that I was unable to diagnose despite multiple attempts. I use a battery operated cordless & intermittently it would shred the grain or else not grind it all. I figured out that drill needs to have a freshly charged battery as otherwise it won't work at all. The water with the malt makes the malt softer & therefore easier to mill. I was astounded by difference it made. Normally I would have an unbelievable amount of flour & what looks like wheat germ around the bottom of my mill & loads of both in the bucket. This time there was little or none of either on the underside of the mill. There was still a fair amount of flour but I would expect this as it was approximately 45% wheat malt for a wheat beer.
The huge surprise for me was the malt husk was still visibly present & looked almost plump. The closest thing I could compare it to was sugar puffs. I would be confident that this technique will improve my efficiency & also decrease my chances of a stuck sparge, so much so I am going to give a botched Rye Ipa another go (will still use some oat hulls as insurance :)
Will post an update with my next few beers. Gotta love this site & NHC as its allowing me eventually figure out my mistakes but also fix them :)
Shanna
Quote from: Shanna on August 02, 2015, 02:59:32 PM
Quote from: armedcor on August 02, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
Nice one. It really makes a lovely difference to the malt. Especially good if you're recirculating with a pump etc.
... I am going to give a botched Rye Ipa another go (will still use some oat hulls as insurance :)
No no, not the rye IPA! :D
Quote from: molc on August 02, 2015, 03:20:01 PM
Quote from: Shanna on August 02, 2015, 02:59:32 PM
Quote from: armedcor on August 02, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
Nice one. It really makes a lovely difference to the malt. Especially good if you're recirculating with a pump etc.
... I am going to give a botched Rye Ipa another go (will still use some oat hulls as insurance :)
No no, not the rye IPA! :D
Don't remember you having the pleasure!!! :) Might start using my herms with as the grain bed + oat hulls should let it work. However I do promise also to scrupously clean my bottles in W5 + scrub inside before bottling beforehand, no more dishwashing going forward (& hopefully no more gushers :))
Shanna
Yeah I did my wit with 45% wheat using the herms and some oat husks - worked like a charm recirculating through a protein rest, conversion and mash out with nothing sticking. It really is the business.
Quote from: Shanna on August 02, 2015, 02:59:32 PM
Quote from: armedcor on August 02, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
Nice one. It really makes a lovely difference to the malt. Especially good if you're recirculating with a pump etc.
Have to say it also put to bed the problem I have been having with mill & my drill that I was unable to diagnose despite multiple attempts. I use a battery operated cordless & intermittently it would shred the grain or else not grind it all. I figured out that drill needs to have a freshly charged battery as otherwise it won't work at all. The water with the malt makes the malt softer & therefore easier to mill. I was astounded by difference it made. Normally I would have an unbelievable amount of flour & what looks like wheat germ around the bottom of my mill & loads of both in the bucket. This time there was little or none of either on the underside of the mill. There was still a fair amount of flour but I would expect this as it was approximately 45% wheat malt for a wheat beer.
The huge surprise for me was the malt husk was still visibly present & looked almost plump. The closest thing I could compare it to was sugar puffs. I would be confident that this technique will improve my efficiency & also decrease my chances of a stuck sparge, so much so I am going to give a botched Rye Ipa another go (will still use some oat hulls as insurance :)
Will post an update with my next few beers. Gotta love this site & NHC as its allowing me eventually figure out my mistakes but also fix them :)
Shanna
I made a wheat beer out of the malt last night and I was pretty happy with the results. The wort flowed out of the grain bed on draining the first runnings and also with the sparge. I was super easy to do both and the recirculation was a breeze also. Unfortunately I messed up my mash temperatures and to compensate I put in extra hot water so I was about .5 of a point down on my OG & I did not have enough time to boil off the extra water added. Next time around I should get a better idea of what the impact is.
Shanna