Would this be the right stuff to use?
(http://i.imgur.com/rgUw6OLl.jpg)
Yeah, go for it.
I've made inverted sugar a few times for ice cream and other desserts, I've always used normal granulated sugar, never brown/demerara sugar. But then again I've never tried brown so it might work, I'm not sure how the impurities in demerara would affect the conversion process, if it does at all.
I see your time in Belgium was not wasted so :)
The impurities in the sugar will just add to the caramel flavour, it won't affect the conversion process.
Anyone know about using invert sugar? I've seen some old British recipes (Ron Pattinson etc.) with invert sugar in them, but when I add the recipe into beersmith, the original gravity is much higher than expected. However when I add the recipe without the invert sugar, the original gravity is spot on. This suggests that the invert sugar provides only flavours and not fermentables, but surely thats not the case?
http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.ca/2013/09/making-belgian-candi-sugar.html?m=1
Isn't Candi Sugar made from Beet sugar though?
Old school invert sugar is made with cane sugar
As far as I am aware, cane or beet doesn't matter, once you start with sucrose.
Inverting is the process of splitting sucrose into fructose and glucose.
There are two processes in the above link.
The first makes invert, the second candy sugar.
In the second process maillard reactions occur a well as inverting.
Why are you making it? Golden syrup is inverted sugar syrup.
Simple video showing how it is made
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV4CSzC_hyo
In this video he says that that resultant invert will be about 30% sweeter than the table sugar.
Where can you get cream of tartar in Dublin as a matter of interest?
I was looking at the price of Belgian Candi sugar there and even in 25kg sacks it's €38. Is it me or is that a bit mad pricewise? I mean if sugar is a cheap adjunct then why is it dearer than grain?
Cream of tartar should be on the homebaking section in Supervalu
Quote from: cruiscinlan on February 12, 2016, 05:55:21 PM
I was looking at the price of Belgian Candi sugar there and even in 25kg sacks it's €38. Is it me or is that a bit mad pricewise? I mean if sugar is a cheap adjunct then why is it dearer than grain?
Whats the price of a kilo of Siucra? Last I saw it was 1.35 as kilo.
Luckily JC's in Swords are selling Gem or Tatel&Lyle for 0.99c. (It used to be 0.89 and was once 0.79 in the last 6 months)
Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.
Inverting sugar by simple acid hydrolysis is WAY different to making Candi sugar!!
Quote from: Will_D on February 12, 2016, 10:43:22 PM
Whats the price of a kilo of Siucra? Last I saw it was 1.35 as kilo.
Ohhh droppin' brandnames! I'm just talking about own brands. Cheapest in aldi/lidl is caster at €1.09 at the moment.
Quote from: Will_D on February 12, 2016, 10:43:22 PM
Luckily JC's in Swords are selling Gem or Tatel&Lyle for 0.99c. (It used to be 0.89 and was once 0.79 in the last 6 months)
Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.
Inverting sugar by simple acid hydrolysis is WAY different to making Candi sugar!!
I wouldn't expect a homebrewer making it on the once-off to match the economics of an industrial process of course. But this is precisely why I'm wondering why the industrially produced product is so expensive, its up there or dearer than the prices of specialty malts like malted oats, rye, maris otter etc.
And the question I've asked hasn't been answered, if sugar is a 'cheap adjunct' why is it dearer than malt?
All sugar is imported would be part of the reason.
We used to have a thriving sugar beet industry but the government at the time shut this down completely in 2006.
This impacted jobs, economy and cost of sugar.
In 2010 they discovered that this was unnecessary.
Quote from: Will_D on February 12, 2016, 10:43:22 PM
Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.
Can I ask, what source of Lime did you use, something food grade or just generic?
Quote from: delzep on April 03, 2015, 10:41:24 PMsome old British recipes (Ron Pattinson etc.) with invert sugar in them
Quote from: imark on April 04, 2015, 10:23:34 AM
Why are you making it? Golden syrup is inverted sugar syrup.
I've just bought a copy of Ron Pattinsons book myself, and although I've not brewed any of the recipes yet, I've been wondering if it's necessary / worth it making invert sugar. It seems there's 3 or 4 different types which I doubt I'd be bothered enough to try and recreate. So considering just using golden syrup for all of them as I'm not too bothered about creating the exact historical beer.
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/refined-sugar-vs-invert-sugar.html (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/refined-sugar-vs-invert-sugar.html)
Reading some of the comments, it sounds like a mix of mainly golden syrup and some honey makes a reasonable approximation.
Quote from: oblivious on February 15, 2016, 08:17:50 AM
Quote from: Will_D on February 12, 2016, 10:43:22 PM
Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.
Can I ask, what source of Lime did you use, something food grade or just generic?
Yes it was FG (from e-pray) pretty cheap - you don't need a lot!
Quote from: Will_D on February 12, 2016, 10:43:22 PM
Having made a Candi sugar from scratch (from Sugar Beet - needs Lime and CO2 and a LOT of boiling) then that price is pretty good.
How did you get your hands on sugar beet? Cheapest sugar I've seen is Gem in Tops and Pops for €1 for 1kg.
One source in the UK for brewing sugars is http://ragus.co.uk/, I'll if I can get any joy out of them.
Quote from: cruiscinlan on February 24, 2016, 04:50:52 PM
How did you get your hands on sugar beet? Cheapest sugar I've seen is Gem in Tops and Pops for €1 for 1kg.
I grew it from seed in the garden and the club!
Probably broke the law on Irish Sugar Beet production (that is about to or has already expired?) when the EU paid .ie to stop growing beet sugar as there was a EU surplus. Only trouble was some bean counter couldn't count his fekin beans and got the decimal point wrong!
It IS much easier to buy Candi sugar from Belgium!
I followed this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2m6i_VSRbI and made some candi sugar. I didn't boil for 15 mins as advised though as I got bored halfway through and finished it early which was probably a mistake. I still put it in my beer though and beer came out fine.I will have to make it again as my HBS didn't have any clear candi sugar but this time will be more patient.
I've read so much competing information on this I've decided to get Brewer's Invert no.s 2 & 3 to see. Given the relatively high price of sugar compared to malt, you would think there has to be an element or extra dimension it adds. But either way I'll report back.
some interesting information here
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42824 (http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42824)
seems easy enough to make using lemon juice as a citric acid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup#Inverting_sugar
QuoteInverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding water and roughly one gram of citric acid per kilogram of sugar.[5] (Lemon juice is 5% to 6% citric acid, with a negligible amount of ascorbic acid, so this would correspond to about 20 grams of lemon juice per kilogram of sugar.) Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram)[5] or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used.
The mixture is boiled to get to a temperature of 114 °C (237 °F),[5] and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.
Quote from: Ciaran on March 14, 2016, 09:22:39 AM
some interesting information here
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42824 (http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42824)
seems easy enough to make using lemon juice as a citric acid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup#Inverting_sugar
QuoteInverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding water and roughly one gram of citric acid per kilogram of sugar.[5] (Lemon juice is 5% to 6% citric acid, with a negligible amount of ascorbic acid, so this would correspond to about 20 grams of lemon juice per kilogram of sugar.) Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram)[5] or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used.
The mixture is boiled to get to a temperature of 114 °C (237 °F),[5] and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.
But that's not the same as the belgian stuff. They use beat sugar which has been through a strong NaOH (strong base) wash and has residual amino acid from the beets. This is what give the flavour, high pH protects the reducing sugars prevent burning and allows flavor development, through maillard reactions with the sugar and amino acids .
Threads here on Sugar Inversion/Conversion (Perversion?)...
http://goo.gl/dKZIB0
http://goo.gl/3CbsVl
Heres a good resource on it...
http://goo.gl/Gb0sqL
Quote from: oblivious on March 14, 2016, 09:49:28 AM
But that's not the same as the belgian stuff. They use beat sugar which has been through a strong NaOH (strong base) wash and has residual amino acid from the beets. This is what give the flavour, high pH protects the reducing sugars prevent burning and allows flavor development, through maillard reactions with the sugar and amino acids .
I'm not entirely sure that its the beetroot that gives the particular character, but rather the processing, can you really recreate maillard reactions at home?
I'm not saying you can't invert a sugar, just that the result is not Brewing Sugar or Belgian Candi.
The sugar beet provides complex nitrogen rich proteins and amino acids that react during the hydrolysis process.
If you use refined sugar (cane or beet) then you can add some inorganic wine yeast nutrients (Diammonium Phosphate and Ammonium Sulpahate) to up the pH and also supply some Nitrogen
Quote from: cruiscinlan on March 14, 2016, 06:12:47 PM
I'm not entirely sure that its the beetroot that gives the particular character, but rather the processing, can you really recreate maillard reactions at home?
Yeah its nothing to do with flavour just residual source of nitrogen and the NaOH wash. As will has said people add Diammonium Phosphate to try over come this. Other nitrogen/ amino acid sources may give different results
Quote from: cruiscinlan on March 14, 2016, 06:12:47 PM
I'm not saying you can't invert a sugar, just that the result is not Brewing Sugar or Belgian Candi.
More of a culinary invert syugar
Quote from: Will_D on March 14, 2016, 09:58:24 PM
If you use refined sugar (cane or beet) then you can add some inorganic wine yeast nutrients (Diammonium Phosphate and Ammonium Sulpahate) to up the pH and also supply some Nitrogen
Not sure that diammonium Phosphate would have the buffering capacity on it own. Also as the rxn progress the ammonium will be used up and Maillard rxns work best at higher the pH
oblivious & Will_D let me know if you want a piece of the brewing sugar when it arrives to try out.
Quote from: johnrm on March 14, 2016, 01:42:42 PM
Threads here on Sugar Inversion/Conversion (Perversion?)...
http://goo.gl/dKZIB0
http://goo.gl/3CbsVl
Heres a good resource on it...
http://goo.gl/Gb0sqL
I would also add Ryan's blog to that list
http://ryanbrews.blogspot.ie/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html