National Homebrew Club Ireland

General Discussions => Brewing Communities => Belfast Homebrewers => Topic started by: Quiet_Man on April 12, 2015, 09:24:12 AM

Title: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on April 12, 2015, 09:24:12 AM
Folks - one of the hot topics from Thursday night's agenda, was arranging a tasting panel for beer off flavours as one of our Belfast Club meets.....

I thought we normally addressed this at each meet, tasting Barry's beers! Ha, ha! - only jesting!

So the idea is to buy-in a sensory kit and arrange a meet, run a tasting panel, etc.....

First-up, we need to see who is interested. So in time-honoured tradition, we need a list.....

1. Quiet_Man
2.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: sub82 on April 12, 2015, 09:30:56 PM
Aye man - am definitely up for this sort of thing. Would be good with the upcoming BJCP!

1. Quiet_Man
2. sub82
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Will on April 12, 2015, 09:35:36 PM
Yep be keen on this

1. Quiet_Man
2. sub82
3. Will
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Ciaran on April 12, 2015, 10:51:13 PM
I'd be well up for that

1. Quiet_Man
2. sub82
3. Will
4. Ciaran
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Bazza on April 13, 2015, 10:12:35 AM
Quote from: Quiet_Man on April 12, 2015, 09:24:12 AM
I thought we normally addressed this at each meet, tasting Barry's beers!
You're funnier than piles, Andy.

Yep; well up for this one. Do we have an upper limit on numbers?

1. Quiet_Man
2. sub82
3. Will
4. Ciaran
5. Bazza (preparation 'haitch' :))

-Barry

Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on April 13, 2015, 12:26:58 PM
"Do we have an upper limit on numbers?"

The kit has a range of taints in capsule form, which you dilute to make 1 Litre of each.

The one we discussed is £80 and covers Diacetyl, Lightstruck, Mercaptan, Metallic, Papery, Phenolic, Sour, Dimethyl Sulphide (DMS), Butyric, H2S.

To keep it manageable as a Club meet, probably 8 - 10 folk who are willing to share the costs.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Bazza on April 13, 2015, 12:46:38 PM
Quote from: Quiet_Man on April 13, 2015, 12:26:58 PM
The kit has a range of taints
..or improvements if it's your beer we're talking about Hah - got you back!  Game, set and match to the Baz ! :P

-Barry
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: 1911 on April 13, 2015, 02:32:48 PM
Spend good money on tasting bad beer, what there not to like, count me in.

1. Quiet_Man
2. sub82
3. Will
4. Ciaran
5. Bazza (preparation 'haitch' :))
6 Shane
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Bazza on April 13, 2015, 02:35:26 PM
Quote from: 1911 on April 13, 2015, 02:32:48 PM
Spend good money on tasting bad beer
A typical night in Filthy McNasty's. (BaDam- Tish!)

-Barry
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on April 13, 2015, 07:45:36 PM

..or improvements if it's your beer we're talking about Hah - got you back!  Game, set and match to the Baz ! :P [/quote]

Had your coffee porter last night.

Better order the 20 piece Professional Sensory Beer Taints kit!

Advantage Q_M  >:D
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Bazza on April 13, 2015, 10:03:09 PM
Quote from: Quiet_Man on April 13, 2015, 07:45:36 PM

Had your coffee porter last night.

Better order the 20 piece Professional Sensory Beer Taints kit!

Advantage Q_M  >:D

Bitch
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Bazza on April 23, 2015, 09:50:10 AM
Any more takers for this?

Or do we reckon 6 is a nice manageable number for now?

Cheers,

-Barry
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: sub82 on April 24, 2015, 09:20:37 AM
6 is probably a good number to run with.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Bazza on April 24, 2015, 09:44:42 AM
Quote from: sub82 on April 24, 2015, 09:20:37 AM
6 is probably a good number to run with.

You happy enough we close this one, Andy (Quiet_Man)?

-Barry
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on April 24, 2015, 10:31:01 AM
Yep, I'm happy to run with this.

I'll order in the kit, then we can start planning a date.

Q_M
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on May 20, 2015, 11:22:28 PM
So Belfast Home-Brewers (and not forgetting our more rural cousins)........any more takers for this? We could squeeze in a couple more.

1. Quiet_Man
2. sub82
3. Will
4. Ciaran
5. Bazza
6 Shane

I have the kit. So we need a date & venue. Then select a suitable bland beer as a base to spike with the off-flavours. Any suggestions? (I know everyone is going to crack a joke here about using one of Bazza's, but let's spare him - this time). Something mainstream. Some jugs for mixing. Some glasses (probably disposable plastic ones best so we don't get any cross-over). Some water. Some cream crackers. Paper and pens to write down our thoughts. Copies of the tasting notes.

So, lets get a date in the diary. Can someone, more proficient in the use of this forum post a poll to get us started?
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: johnrm on May 21, 2015, 12:19:32 AM
We ran one of these about a month ago.
10 bodies with 750ml of beer.
We got through 24 offs in about 3 hours. 4 hours would be better.
We used Molson Canadian, mostly tasteless.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: sub82 on May 21, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
Great stuff on the kit! Really looking forward to this.

Thank you for the comment John. I assume, given the time it took johnrm, that a Saturday would be better? Or would we want to split the kit over a number of weeks?

Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: johnrm on May 21, 2015, 11:31:13 AM
Doing it in one fell swoop was easier on peoples schedules - All or nothing.

We squeezed it in on a Friday night, but its really up to you.
24 samples over 3 hours is 7.5 mins each.
We tended not to say the off for the first minute, to allow people to guess, but how you do it is up to you.

Probably a good idea to pick out the key offs and put these aside and have a quiz at the end.
We didn't but should have.
Diacetyl, DMS, cardboard, etc.

The recommended dilution was 1 vial per litre, we did 750ml so maybe dilute them a tad more for the final dose.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Will_D on May 21, 2015, 11:57:35 AM
What we found was that some of them were barely detectable by most people at the recommendd dilution. Its no point giving someone the off flavour which is below their detection limit!

Make it up a little stronger. Some will be detectable inches from your nose and some people may not want to taste it! If so they can dilute it a bit in their sample.

Some of the lesser tasters will need warmering, swirling and tasting.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: banjobrew on May 22, 2015, 09:10:49 AM
If it's not too late and there aren't too many I'll chip in!
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: redshift on May 22, 2015, 09:14:50 AM
Quote from: banjobrew on May 22, 2015, 09:10:49 AM
If it's not too late and there aren't too many I'll chip in!
Likewise if I haven't missed the boat I'd love to get in on this!
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: robotmonkey on May 22, 2015, 09:25:51 AM
If there are any spaces left I'll give this a go (and then realise all of them are in my own beer lol)

1. Quiet_Man
2. sub82
3. Will
4. Ciaran
5. Bazza
6 Shane
7 Banjobrew
8 Redshift
9 Robotmonkey
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Andrew on May 22, 2015, 09:53:16 AM
Quote from: Will_D on May 21, 2015, 11:57:35 AM
What we found was that some of them were barely detectable by most people at the recommendd dilution. Its no point giving someone the off flavour which is below their detection limit!

Make it up a little stronger. Some will be detectable inches from your nose and some people may not want to taste it! If so they can dilute it a bit in their sample.

Some of the lesser tasters will need warmering, swirling and tasting.
Were you using the Siebel kit? I found the Aroxa kit much better- it's 3 times the recognition threshold at recommended dilution.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: johnrm on May 22, 2015, 10:04:07 AM
I am not in favour of one kit over the other, but the opposite also applies.
i.e. In order to get a true dilution, you need 3 times the volume for the Aroxa kit.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Andrew on May 22, 2015, 10:08:05 AM
Quote from: johnrm on May 22, 2015, 10:04:07 AM
I am not in favour of one kit over the other, but the opposite also applies.
i.e. In order to get a true dilution, you need 3 times the volume for the Aroxa kit.
It isn't really a true dilution though as off flavours in the wild don't conform to human taste thresholds.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Will_D on May 22, 2015, 10:08:22 AM
Quote from: Andrew on May 22, 2015, 09:53:16 AM
Were you using the Siebel kit? I found the Aroxa kit much better- it's 3 times the recognition threshold at recommended dilution.
Yes we used the Siebel kit twice!

First was at the BrewDock (that seems ages ago!)

2nd time was the BJCP training at Farringtons and then we used less dilution
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: johnrm on May 22, 2015, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: Andrew on May 22, 2015, 10:08:05 AM
It isn't really a true dilution though as off flavours in the wild don't conform to human taste thresholds.

True, but regardless of kit you can use less/more beer on any kit to make the compounds more/less detectable.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Bazza on May 22, 2015, 10:14:15 AM
Regarding timing, I think, Andy, we spoke about maybe doing 8 of the more 'obvious' types one night and the rest some other night. What's the expiry on these things?

CHeers,

-Barry
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: johnrm on May 22, 2015, 03:02:19 PM
The Siebel has 6 months.
The one we did was just at 6 months and was fine.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Andrew on May 22, 2015, 10:50:18 PM
Just got 2 Aroxa kits today- they are capsules rather than liquids. No sign of an expiry date on any of the packaging.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on May 22, 2015, 11:06:00 PM
I also went for the Aroxa kit.

There is a use by date on the lid of the capsule box.

Ours says 16 June 2016.

Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on May 24, 2015, 08:37:30 AM
Sooooooo.......

The kit covers 10 flavours / taints:

Diacetyl, DMS, Metallic, Hop Oil, H2S, Isoamyl acetate, Lightstruck, Papery, Musty, Phenolic.

They are dry powders in capsule, that you dissolve into 1 Litre of beer, with a Use by date of June 2016.

I guess we need to decide doing it all in one go (better suited to a Saturday), or splitting it over two nights (say one meet this side of the summer, with a second meet in the Autumn?).

So for those on the list........what is your preference?

1. Quiet_Man
2. sub82
3. Will
4. Ciaran
5. Bazza
6 Shane
7 Banjobrew
8 Redshift
9 Robotmonkey
10


To everyone else.......the kit is suited for a maximum of 10 people, so if you want to take part, there is only 1 place left on a first come basis.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: redshift on May 24, 2015, 01:46:43 PM
Unfortunately I work unsociable hours during the week so I could only do a Saturday myself.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Will_D on May 24, 2015, 04:27:55 PM
I can assure you all that 100ml of doctored beer is more than enough!

So you could easily get 20 samples (50ml) as you probably only need to smell most of these and one sip is more than enough!
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on May 25, 2015, 09:13:16 AM
Cheers Will_D.

Think Bazza would be hiring in EventSec for crowd control if we got 10+ at a club meet!

Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: banjobrew on May 26, 2015, 06:55:17 PM
To be honest the way my shift pattern works it's like a game of battleship trying to plan anything but I have most weekends free and rarely work later than 8.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel [Bump]
Post by: Quiet_Man on May 29, 2015, 01:32:58 PM
Bumping this as only two replies to date....... >:(

"I guess we need to decide doing it all in one go (better suited to a Saturday), or splitting it over two nights (say one meet this side of the summer, with a second meet in the Autumn?)".

So for those on the list........what is your preference?

1. Quiet_Man - Pref 2 x mid-week evenings
2. sub82
3. Will
4. Ciaran
5. Bazza
6 Shane
7 Banjobrew - Pref Sat
8 Redshift - Pref Sat
9 Robotmonkey
10


To everyone else.......the kit is suited for a maximum of 10 people, so if you want to take part, there is only 1 place left on a first come basis.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Will on May 29, 2015, 01:39:52 PM
End of June onwards works best for me but I'm happy to go with the consensus!

Two meets could work - ensures those who miss the first can pop along to the second. 
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Ciaran on May 29, 2015, 03:59:18 PM
From my point of view in June I can't do 19th or 27th but any other dates are fine.  Reading back down through the thread it can be done in 3 hours but that might be more of a punishment than if it was split it over two days.  At least then you could spend an hour or so actually enjoying a decent beer or two to thank spoons for letting us use the space for 3 hours.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Paddy on May 30, 2015, 08:24:27 PM
Hey folks.

Sorry I've been off the radar recently.

Any spaces left? If so I'd be keen on it.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: banjobrew on June 01, 2015, 10:36:24 PM
Free 13th, 20th, 27th June. Away on holiday after that so next is 18th July. All Saturday's. Free any other night bar Wednesdays and Thursday's.

There's only 9/10 of us so no point in a poll.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on June 06, 2015, 07:41:20 AM
No worries Paddy....I've added you on.

1. Quiet_Man - Pref 2 x mid-week evenings
2. sub82
3. Will - Pref End June, 2 x sessions
4. Ciaran - Pref 2 x sessions
5. Bazza
6 Shane
7 Banjobrew - Pref Sat
8 Redshift - Pref Sat
9 Robotmonkey
10 Paddy

From the replies to date, there is no overwhelming preference. Grateful if the others could input.

Would like to tie down a date and suitable venue in the next few days, but looking like towards the end of June, early July.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Bazza on June 06, 2015, 11:12:18 AM
I'd prefer 2 midweek sessions. Weekends are at a premium from now till September.

No pref on dates but agree before end of June would be best.

Cheers,

- Barry
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: sub82 on June 06, 2015, 07:42:59 PM
Midweek would probably suit me best too. Thursdays being the best but I'm going to be difficult and say I won't be able to do 15th to the 26th.  :-[ Sorry lads.
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Paddy on June 15, 2015, 04:04:54 PM
Can't do Thursdays am afraid but any other day is sound.  But don't let it hinge on me :p
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: auralabuse on June 15, 2015, 04:11:14 PM
Would love to do this if it's ever organised down south
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: banjobrew on June 17, 2015, 09:44:32 PM
Quote from: Quiet_Man on June 06, 2015, 07:41:20 AM
No worries Paddy....I've added you on.

1. Quiet_Man - Pref 2 x mid-week evenings
2. sub82
3. Will - Pref End June, 2 x sessions
4. Ciaran - Pref 2 x sessions
5. Bazza
6 Shane
7 Banjobrew - Pref Sat
8 Redshift - Pref Sat
9 Robotmonkey
10 Paddy

From the replies to date, there is no overwhelming preference. Grateful if the others could input.

Would like to tie down a date and suitable venue in the next few days, but looking like towards the end of June, early July.

Next available date?
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Will on June 24, 2015, 11:01:29 PM
Well folks any idea of dates?
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Frequent Sequence on June 25, 2015, 12:05:42 AM
I'm on for a bit of southern exposure too. :D
Title: Re: Beer Off-Flavours Tasting Panel
Post by: Quiet_Man on June 25, 2015, 09:32:30 PM
"Well folks any idea of dates?"

Sorry folks, can't see this happening for a few weeks yet. June has been manic and about to head off for a couple of weeks in darkest, deepest Connemara.