[size=12][size=11]Just wondering, since this is the official Cork forum whether any one has tested their water / got a report and what they found?[/size][/size]
I have not. Sorry.
I am out Midleton way, but water comes from a private well which tastes fine, but was wondering about its make-up.
There must be a lab somewhere that we can send samples for analysis.
Excellent.
Mine comes from a spring, and was tested before, but wouldn't mind testing it on a more regular basis.
I'll start a thread over on general then...
Apologies for being a bit slow with the follow up post over the Christmas.
Anyway, while I wouldn't be hung up on water profiles, a while back I thought I might have been having water related trouble with mash efficiency and I tried out one of the GH/KH aquarium test kits from this company (http://uk.hagen.com/Aquatic/Watercare/Test-Kits?brand=Nutrafin). I picked it up in Petstop on the Kinsale Road. The Braukaiser website (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=At_home_water_testing) has a handy spreadsheet to interpret the results. I think I also had a look at A.J. deLange's essay (which is linked at the bottom of the Braukaiser page) and John Palmer's "How to Brew" at the time. Both seem pretty good on water. I'm in the western suburbs, so my supply comes from the Lee Road Water Works like most of the rest of the city.
I came up with:
Ca - 22 mg/l
Mg - 6 mg/l
HCO3 - 37 mg/l
I also had Ph (6.98) and Conductivity (148.7 microS/cm) measurements that the council took a while before when we had issues with our water.
For some reason I estimated that the Na, SO4 and Cl were all approximately 10 mg/l. I think this may have been based on the conducivity being low but I can't really remember now.
What was interesting was that despite all the hype about Irish water being hard that the test seemed to say my water was pretty soft, even too soft in terms of Calcium. I don't knpw if it was a fluke, and I could probably do the test again, but since then I've stuck to adding a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride (or gypsum for hoppy beers) to the mash and it seems to be working ok.
Curious to hear what anyone else's experience has been. Or if anyone want's to give this a try it would be interesting to hear what results you get.
On a similar topic, if you google "Beamish water report" you get a water report that Beamish commisioned a couple of years back.
It's kind of interesting reading if only because it as much as says they were brewing with sea water - so its no wonder they had to filter the hell out of it.
HCO3 - 37 mg/l ,this is the bicarbonate number and all you do with this is divide by 1.22 to get the calcium carbonate number CaCO3.
37/1.22 =30.32.
QuoteHCO3 - 37 mg/l ,this is the bicarbonate number and all you do with this is divide by 1.22 to get the calcium carbonate number CaCO3.
37/1.22 =30.32.
Yes, IIRC the test kit actually calculates the GH and KH as ppm CaCO3 amounts and you work back to the bicarbonate from there.
Quote
What was interesting was that despite all the hype about Irish water being hard that the test seemed to say my water was pretty soft, even too soft in terms of Calcium.
Agreed. The brewing water profiles I've seen for Dublin in various places (e.g. Palmer's "How to Brew" p.160) seem way off. Most water in Dublin city at any rate comes from Wicklow reservoirs (Ballymore Eustace or Roundwood) and is very soft (closer to the profile for Pilsen than what Palmer has for Dublin). The Dublin figures bear more resemblance to what Tube et al brew with in Kildare Fingal North County Dublin and must be taken from there. But what are they using at the original home of stout at St James' gate? If it's Dublin city water, it will be soft as a baby's skin.
Quote"
You hear that so often, yet the only stout brewer in Dublin is using Wicklow water from the Vartry which as Andrew says is more like Pilsen.
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We have to flush very hard here in Roundwood to aerate and get our water to taste like Pilsen.
Just noticed, there seems to be a wealth of data on the Geological Survey Ireland website. Whereas Cork County council's water page (http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Cork%20County%20Council/Departments/Environment%20%26%20Waste/Water%20Quality/Drinking%20water) just gives information about conductivity and pH (which looks consistent with what I had) this GSI survey (http://www.gsi.ie/NR/rdonlyres/E8DBED44-D870-42D7-8941-D447089D041C/0/SCork_WQ.pdf) includes a lot of the information brewers might find interesting. It looks like there's probably similar information for other counties as well.
There's even a geological map (http://www.gsi.ie/NR/rdonlyres/F03F2A5F-FF67-4C86-B554-468E671B3597/0/schoolsmap.pdf) which shows that Cork is mostly standstone (meaning softer / less alkaline water) whereas much of the midlands is limestone (harder water).
Quote"Dublin water is very hard, so it's ideally suited to stout"
You hear that so often, yet the only stout brewer in Dublin is using Wicklow water from the Vartry which as Andrew says is more like Pilsen.
There are significant amounts of Limestone around Ireland, but not around Cork city, so it's entirely possible the water is indeed quite soft.
The first time I brewed a lager I used bottled water and treated it because I thought "John Palmer say's my water's hard". ::) In retrospect it was a complete waste of time and money. Come to think of it the fact that there's hardly any limescale in our (coffee) kettle should have been a clue.
As for stout, I assume I'm not alone in waiting till 30 minutes into the mash to add dark grains - making them much less of an influence on mash ph (although I've no idea what Dublin brewers did historically, possibly much like Palmer).
How's it going,
I tried one of these test kits out aswell - I'm in Blarney. My water comes from Inniscarra resevoir (not sure what they do to it on the way to my place) which I'd say is more or less the same as the water in the city. Anyway, my results seem to tally with Mr.Happy's
I got:
Ca = 20 mg/L
Mg = 5 mg/mL
HCO3 = 65 mg/mL
Couldn't determine pH from the test kit but if you look on the Cork County Council web site you can see it on the annual reports.
I think I used the same kit as mr Happy's - it's from the same company. I got mine from the pet shop (opposite Bradley's) on North Main st.
Unless you have your own well, the water in and around Cork City comes from run off so it should be fairly soft which the numbers seem to confirm. I never see scale on kettles - at least compared to someother places I've been.
Re: the whole Stout using hard water thing - I spoke to a guy from Guinness a few years ago (before I started brewing so it went over my head). He said that they just use municipal water from there local supply. Maybe the treat it afterwards?
I was in Anchor brewery in Belgium (Carolus beers) and the guy said that they needed to treat their water to remove hardness. They would seem to have the opposite problem. After living there for a bit and reading some stuff on water treatment you would think that they could never brew a pale beer in that Country! So there seems to be a bit of a contradiction out there:
Dark beers can be brewed in Dublin - although the water is actually soft.
Pale beers can be brewed in Belgium - although the water there is actually hard. From what I saw this was the case all over the country, except possibly the Ardenne area (dish washers in that country don't last pissing time).
Dara
There's a lot made about water chemistry that really isn't of much use to a homebrewer .
Most water profiles in Ireland are pretty soft , because most water is treated before getting to the tap .
Cork is among the softest .
right , the next bit is technical , concentrated to the simple , so please excuse mistakes .
You need some free ions in water to make it receptive to taking solubles in , however , if you have too many there isn't room left for solubles .
Also the exact profile of the water has an effect on the pH attained to mash in when a specific grain ratio is used .
So Water profile is one variable in the mix between grain bill, grain to water ratio and ph reached to promote enzyme activity ( I'll take temperature as fixed for now .)
You have full and easy control of the grain to water ratio and full and easy control of grain bill so why would you want to control your water profile ?
People often say " to hit a style "
You'll hit the style without changing your water , you just won't hit it as efficiently as can be done with the water profile adjusted .
When talking efficiency here it's worth bearing in mind that a homebrewer is doing a circa 20L batch , and a commercial brewer could be doing a 6,000 L batch .
the efficiency , in my opinion , isn't really worth it at homebrewing scales .
Also
Stout was developed in Cork , because in order to hit the efficiency trying to brew porter , Messrs. Beamish and Crawford had to add Roasted Barley to their mash , to compensate for the water difference between London and Cork , and arrive at the correct pH in the mash .
I've a pH tester , I've never failed to hit mash pH in any batch since I started brewing , for any recipe I tried , because I've always treated the Cork City water as negligible in contribution , and adjusting my Grain Bill and ratio of grain to water to compensate .
BTW the Figures for Ca and carbonates given above tie in pretty closely with what I was told by a water engineer for the council once .
Quote from: wallacebiy on February 13, 2013, 12:01:46 PM
There's a lot made about water chemistry that really isn't of much use to a homebrewer .
Most water profiles in Ireland are pretty soft , because most water is treated before getting to the tap .
Cork is among the softest .
Also
Stout was developed in Cork , because in order to hit the efficiency trying to brew porter , Messrs. Beamish and Crawford had to add Roasted Barley to their mash , to compensate for the water difference between London and Cork , and arrive at the correct pH in the mash .
This is a very enlightening discussion. I hope I can add to the knowledge here and get some more.
As much of central Ireland is underlain with limestone formations, groundwater and to some extent, surface waters, are likely to be harder and more alkaline than noted for the granitic formations such as Wicklow. Given the potential hardness in those central Irish sources, I am curious about your indication that most waters are softened by their water utilities. Do you happen to know what softening method is utilized? Not all softening methods provide a water that is suited for brewing. In my 27 years of consulting engineering for water utilities, I have noticed that softening is not always something that the water users are willing to pay for. The cities might do the softening, but it seems that the little villages don't have the will or the money. So I'm wondering if softening is really that widespread?
This is very interesting that you report that Cork has some of the softest water. After reading the GSI report that was mentioned in a post above, they report that even the waters in the sandstone areas around Cork can have significant hardness and alkalinity. That suggests that there is likely a significant interflow between those carbonate and sandstone aquifers in the region. Sandstone would not contribute any hardness or alkalinity in most cases. However, I do see that in Michael Lewis' book on Stout, he mentioned that most breweries in Cork took their water from the River Lee, which avoided the excessive alkalinity of the groundwater. So I take it that Cork is one of the cities that does soften their water or does all the water come from the river? Since a process such as cation-exchange would not alter the alkalinity of the water, I must assume that the Cork water is Lime-softened. That would reduce the calcium (possibly the magnesium) and the alkalinity levels of the local water. Do you happen to know if that is the process they use?
The fact that the local Cork waters are typically alkaline to some degree does agree with your statement that the Stout style was developed in the City. The alkalinity would provide against an excessive mash pH drop without resorting to the Guinness method of mashing the pale malts without the separately-steeped roast malts (Guinness Flavor Extract). I personally feel that the appropriate alkalinity level in a stout or porter produces a better taste than the acidic character of Guinness. But you have to give it to Guinness for creating a great selling product.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the waters in Cork and elsewhere in Ireland. As mentioned above, the "Dublin" water profile has been somewhat misconstrued since most printed and internet sources fail to recognize the impact of Wicklow Mountain water in Dublin. But one must also recognize that there are plenty of places to the north and west of Dublin that do have water that resembles the reported "Dublin" profile...hard and alkaline. This is a curious omission that I hope to correct.
Thank you!
Hi Martin,
Cork water works is on the River Lee as it enters the city and the water supply comes from Iniscarra reservoir. As the water supply is disrupted when there is flooding I would assume it comes from the river.
If you look at the conductivity information in the data through the first link on my last post you'll see that it's consistently low for locations supplied by Iniscarra but much more variable for other locations which may be supplied by ground water.
By the way, if you've not already check out Martyn Cornell's Amber, Black & Gold for a good discussion of the origins of stout and porter.
I always find it very amusing how seriously people take water.
That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion ;D
Next Batch, I'm going to bring a fermenter and fill it from the (plumbed) Cooler in the canteen at work...
Quote from: johnrm on May 17, 2013, 01:55:25 PM
Next Batch, I'm going to bring a fermenter and fill it from the (plumbed) Cooler in the canteen at work...
Does this water come with a spec sheet with the details of what is in it. If we don't know what is in the water we don't know what to add or remove.
No, but its on the same Supply as the Franciscan Well.
I might get a recipe from Peter Lyall!
Quote from: Tube on May 17, 2013, 12:06:13 PM
Quote from: wallacebiy on February 13, 2013, 12:01:46 PMMost water profiles in Ireland are pretty soft , because most water is treated before getting to the tap .
For hardness? Are you sure about that, as this would seem to indicate otherwise (see KE18/0710): http://kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/CorporateServices/CorporateServices/CouncilMeetings/KildareAreaCommitteeMeetings/2010/Minutes/Minutes21JulyKildareareaCommittee.html
That is interesting reading. Your a grand fellow for taking the time to read county council babble to get to the information,personally wreck my head however I digress.
So the Wellfield water supply is ground water which is coming off a limestone floor,this is a common issue in the Midlands of the country as well I believe. It does not say in the report how the Redhills reservoir is filled,presumably from a river maybe. What is clear from this report is the council does not treat the water with any softener equipment.
Quote from: LordEoin on May 17, 2013, 12:41:33 PM
I always find it very amusing how seriously people take water.
That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion ;D
Wait til you go AG and you'll change your tune. ;D
On the Iniscarra supply I just need a teaspoon of something with calcium in it but you might want to talk to Billy if you are out his way.
Quote from: mr happy on May 18, 2013, 12:07:54 AM
Quote from: LordEoin on May 17, 2013, 12:41:33 PM
I always find it very amusing how seriously people take water.
That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion ;D
Wait til you go AG and you'll change your tune. ;D
On the Iniscarra supply I just need a teaspoon of something with calcium in it but you might want to talk to Billy if you are out his way.
I take water from my own spring, and apart from getting it tested as fit for human consumption have never tested if for brewing or adjusted it for brewing.