Water

[wallacebiy]

There's a lot made about water chemistry that really isn't of much use to a homebrewer .

Most water profiles in Ireland are pretty soft , because most water is treated before getting to the tap .
Cork is among the softest .


right , the next bit is technical , concentrated to the simple , so please excuse mistakes .

You need some free ions in water to make it receptive to taking solubles in , however , if you have too many there isn't room left for solubles .

Also the exact profile of the water has an effect on the pH attained to mash in when a specific grain ratio is used .



So Water profile is one variable in the mix between grain bill, grain to water ratio and ph reached to promote enzyme activity ( I'll take temperature as fixed for now .)

You have full and easy control of the grain to water ratio and full and easy control of grain bill so why would you want to control your water profile ?

People often say  " to hit a style "
You'll hit the style without changing your water , you just won't hit it as efficiently as can be done with the water profile adjusted .

When talking efficiency here it's worth bearing in mind that a homebrewer is doing a circa 20L batch , and a commercial brewer could be doing a 6,000 L batch .

the efficiency , in my opinion , isn't really worth it at homebrewing scales .


Also
Stout was developed in Cork , because in order to hit the efficiency trying to brew porter , Messrs. Beamish and Crawford had to add Roasted Barley to their mash , to compensate for the water difference between London and Cork , and arrive at the correct pH in the mash .


I've a pH tester , I've never failed to hit mash pH in any batch since I started brewing , for any recipe I tried , because I've always treated the Cork City water as negligible in contribution , and adjusting my Grain Bill and ratio of grain to water to compensate .


BTW the Figures for Ca and carbonates given above tie in pretty closely with what I was told by a water engineer for the council once .

[mabrungard]

There's a lot made about water chemistry that really isn't of much use to a homebrewer .

Most water profiles in Ireland are pretty soft , because most water is treated before getting to the tap .
Cork is among the softest .

Also
Stout was developed in Cork , because in order to hit the efficiency trying to brew porter , Messrs. Beamish and Crawford had to add Roasted Barley to their mash , to compensate for the water difference between London and Cork , and arrive at the correct pH in the mash .

This is a very enlightening discussion.  I hope I can add to the knowledge here and get some more. 

As much of central Ireland is underlain with limestone formations, groundwater and to some extent, surface waters, are likely to be harder and more alkaline than noted for the granitic formations such as Wicklow.  Given the potential hardness in those central Irish sources, I am curious about your indication that most waters are softened by their water utilities.  Do you happen to know what softening method is utilized?  Not all softening methods provide a water that is suited for brewing.  In my 27 years of consulting engineering for water utilities, I have noticed that softening is not always something that the water users are willing to pay for.  The cities might do the softening, but it seems that the little villages don't have the will or the money.  So I'm wondering if softening is really that widespread?

This is very interesting that you report that Cork has some of the softest water.  After reading the GSI report that was mentioned in a post above, they report that even the waters in the sandstone areas around Cork can have significant hardness and alkalinity.  That suggests that there is likely a significant interflow between those carbonate and sandstone aquifers in the region.  Sandstone would not contribute any hardness or alkalinity in most cases.  However, I do see that in Michael Lewis' book on Stout, he mentioned that most breweries in Cork took their water from the River Lee, which avoided the excessive alkalinity of the groundwater.  So I take it that Cork is one of the cities that does soften their water or does all the water come from the river?  Since a process such as cation-exchange would not alter the alkalinity of the water, I must assume that the Cork water is Lime-softened.  That would reduce the calcium (possibly the magnesium) and the alkalinity levels of the local water.  Do you happen to know if that is the process they use? 

The fact that the local Cork waters are typically alkaline to some degree does agree with your statement that the Stout style was developed in the City.  The alkalinity would provide against an excessive mash pH drop without resorting to the Guinness method of mashing the pale malts without the separately-steeped roast malts (Guinness Flavor Extract).  I personally feel that the appropriate alkalinity level in a stout or porter produces a better taste than the acidic character of Guinness.  But you have to give it to Guinness for creating a great selling product.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the waters in Cork and elsewhere in Ireland.  As mentioned above, the "Dublin" water profile has been somewhat misconstrued since most printed and internet sources fail to recognize the impact of Wicklow Mountain water in Dublin.  But one must also recognize that there are plenty of places to the north and west of Dublin that do have water that resembles the reported "Dublin" profile...hard and alkaline.  This is a curious omission that I hope to correct.

Thank you!

[mr hoppy]

Hi Martin,

Cork water works is on the River Lee as it enters the city and the water supply comes from Iniscarra reservoir. As the water supply is disrupted when there is flooding I would assume it comes from the river.

If you look at the conductivity information in the data through the first link on my last post you'll see that it's consistently low for locations supplied by Iniscarra but much more variable for other locations which may be supplied by ground water.

By the way, if you've not already check out Martyn Cornell's Amber, Black & Gold for a good discussion of the origins of stout and porter.

[LordEoin]

I always find it very amusing how seriously people take water.
That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion 

[johnrm]

Next Batch, I'm going to bring a fermenter and fill it from the (plumbed) Cooler in the canteen at work...

[DEMPSEY]

Next Batch, I'm going to bring a fermenter and fill it from the (plumbed) Cooler in the canteen at work...

Does this water come with a spec sheet with the details of what is in it. If we don't know what is in the water we don't know what to add or remove.

[johnrm]

No, but its on the same Supply as the Franciscan Well.
I might get a recipe from Peter Lyall!

[DEMPSEY]

Most water profiles in Ireland are pretty soft , because most water is treated before getting to the tap .

For hardness? Are you sure about that, as this would seem to indicate otherwise (see KE18/0710): http://kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/CorporateServices/CorporateServices/CouncilMeetings/KildareAreaCommitteeMeetings/2010/Minutes/Minutes21JulyKildareareaCommittee.html

That is interesting reading. Your a grand fellow for taking the time to read county council babble to get to the information,personally wreck my head however I digress.
So the Wellfield water supply is ground water which is coming off a limestone  floor,this is a common issue in the Midlands of the country as well I believe. It does not say in the report how the Redhills reservoir is filled,presumably from a river maybe. What is clear from this report is the council does not treat the water with any softener equipment. 

[mr hoppy]

I always find it very amusing how seriously people take water.
That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion 

Wait til you go AG and you'll change your tune.

On the Iniscarra supply I just need a teaspoon of something with calcium in it but you might want to talk to Billy if you are out his way.

[Taf]

I always find it very amusing how seriously people take water.
That's about all I have to contribute to this discussion 

Wait til you go AG and you'll change your tune.

On the Iniscarra supply I just need a teaspoon of something with calcium in it but you might want to talk to Billy if you are out his way.

I take water from my own spring, and apart from getting it tested as fit for human consumption have never tested if for brewing or adjusted it for brewing.