South Dublin Brewers - Next Meet - Thur 30th July

[Shanna]

Touch of the "pineapple chunk syndrome" there  try and focus of brewing a couple of good beers and getting it right rather than frustrating yourself again, this time with a really tricky process that has the potential for a car crash, especially now you have temp control.
I am a reasonably proficient brewer and I wouldn't touch decoction with yours never mind mine, for two reasons, ends don't justify the means and potential for it becoming a pigs arse 
Maybe someday when I'm bored...

I know you have gap right as you used my feeler gauges, I did get them back? I use credit cards now in any case, mostly hers.

Could be a case of running before crawling no mind walking but I was curious to what it was like. Not sure if the question 're the feelers was for me as far as I remember they were returned (certainly I don't have them). As for pineapple chunk syndrome can't stand fruit beers!!!

Would like to think I can keep pushing myself & learn from the mistakes if possible.
Shanna

[molc]

Ah the itch to try new and exciting things, without mastering the last thing we did. The constant curse of the homebrewer. Got to agree decoction is probably a step too far when messing with your new herms though

That said, I have no beer to show for the last 3 months as I've been redoing the same recipe trying to get it right, messing with pitching rates and stuck fermentations. (It's just pils, sugar, saaz and yeast - how hard could it be! - famous last words) Everything in balance and remember, it's meant to be fun too!

[Shanna]

Ah the itch to try new and exciting things, without mastering the last thing we did. The constant curse of the homebrewer. Got to agree decoction is probably a step too far when messing with your new herms though

That said, I have no beer to show for the last 3 months as I've been redoing the same recipe trying to get it right, messing with pitching rates and stuck fermentations. (It's just pils, sugar, saaz and yeast - how hard could it be! - famous last words) Everything in balance and remember, it's meant to be fun too!

Decoction was without herms so technically it was using exactly the same kit Going to try the herms on the next (4th generation Weiss bier). Personally I find getting stuff consistent is the biggest challenge as I sometimes think everything went perfect on brew day only to find some other issue that was not a problem has crept in. Got to agree with both of you (CH & molc) that going forward will start to focus more on the quality + simplicity to iron out the problems.

Shanna

[Bubbles]

Decoction was without herms so technically it was using exactly the same kit Going to try the herms on the next (4th generation Weiss bier). Personally I find getting stuff consistent is the biggest challenge as I sometimes think everything went perfect on brew day only to find some other issue that was not a problem has crept in. Got to agree with both of you (CH & molc) that going forward will start to focus more on the quality + simplicity to iron out the problems.

Shanna, yourself, CH and molc have all hit the nail on the head there as regards your brewing. You're blazing a trail with advanced techniques like HERMS and decoction but you're losing sight of the basics - fermentation & sanitisation. You've been having a lot of problems with your beers for longer than I can remember, and the feedback you've been getting from the meets has always been the same - hot alcohols, various infections. These are problems that happen on the "cold side" - yeast health, pitching rates, pitching & fermentation temperatures, ensuring your equipment, bottles/kegs and brewing space are free from nasties etc. None of these issues can be fixed by jumping head first into advanced mashing techniques. I also think you should try to simplify your brewing, not make it more complicated. Otherwise it's just time and money down the drain.

At this stage I'd be looking at examining every part of the process and investing in some new equipment and ingredients to try to get to the bottom of it.

[Shanna]

Decoction was without herms so technically it was using exactly the same kit Going to try the herms on the next (4th generation Weiss bier). Personally I find getting stuff consistent is the biggest challenge as I sometimes think everything went perfect on brew day only to find some other issue that was not a problem has crept in. Got to agree with both of you (CH & molc) that going forward will start to focus more on the quality + simplicity to iron out the problems.

Shanna, yourself, CH and molc have all hit the nail on the head there as regards your brewing. You're blazing a trail with advanced techniques like HERMS and decoction but you're losing sight of the basics - fermentation & sanitisation. You've been having a lot of problems with your beers for longer than I can remember, and the feedback you've been getting from the meets has always been the same - hot alcohols, various infections. These are problems that happen on the "cold side" - yeast health, pitching rates, pitching & fermentation temperatures, ensuring your equipment, bottles/kegs and brewing space are free from nasties etc. None of these issues can be fixed by jumping head first into advanced mashing techniques. I also think you should try to simplify your brewing, not make it more complicated. Otherwise it's just time and money down the drain.

At this stage I'd be looking at examining every part of the process and investing in some new equipment and ingredients to try to get to the bottom of it.

Back to the drawing board me thinks ;-) In my defense me, I thought I had basics ironed out. Problems seem to occur with if & when I change things to reduce time to brew, means there is always something else different that can have an impact. Point taken though, so will endeavour to repeat the process till I am happy that I am getting it consistent before adding something new.

Shanna

[David]

Ahhhhhhhh just went down to shed had a leak on a liquid disconnect. Hadn't tightened the barb properly, the beer seeped out must have been over a few days most of an Irish gone. Lesson learned .

[Bubbles]

Ensuring sanitation and preventing infections from creeping into your beer is as basic as it gets and has to the top priority of any brewer. Until you have that and your fermentation sorted out, everything else is just distracting you and adding complexity to your brewing.

[molc]

Sanatition is one of those things I just kinda assumed takes care of itself once you have a good process. Clean like a mofo and sanatise all on the cold side.
Yeast for me is the single most important thing people neglect when improving their craft. It makes such a difference to pitch the right amount and control the fermentation

[Shanna]

Ensuring sanitation and preventing infections from creeping into your beer is as basic as it gets and has to the top priority of any brewer. Until you have that and your fermentation sorted out, everything else is just distracting you and adding complexity to your brewing.

I clean everything fermenters with vwp and sterilise with star San and so it's not like I am not applying best principles,practices. Granted I think I have had issues with bottling recently due to a switch to use a bottle tree add on that uses a reservoir of star San to squirt the star San into the bottles. While it is quick I was begining to think it was reusing the star San too much for my liking. I also suspect that some of the bottles I have are infected with wild yeast & that coupled with this recycled starsan is contributing to occassion gushers & problem bottles. I put most of the bottles through 65C cycle before bottling but maybe some of the older ones need to get chucked. I have had one beer with a definite infection (acetobacter in Belgian golden ale) so I am not exactly typhoid Shanna just yet. I can't explain that one since I have not had anything since then. I suspect that my son & his friends might have been stirring that beer athough I can't be 100% sure. I should have fermentation temperature sorted out also with a temperature controlled fridge. I take everything said on board and value and appreciate the advice from you all.

My general experience is that at least one thing goes awry each & every brew day despite preparing several days in advance & using check lists of prior problems. Sometimes the problems are of my own making & sometimes they are equipment failures such as leaking tap, kettle element burning or pump failing. I am trying to keep a backup of most parts I am using to help avoid this. Will definitely be updating my brewing notes to put additional emphasis on the need for greater attention to yeast, sanitation. and temp control.

Shanna

[molc]

I use one of those squirted things on the bottling tree and it seems to be doing a good job for me. I aslo keep my starsan mix for about 6 months. The last one was even starting to go a weird brown colour before I ditched it but the ph was fine and no infections occurred.

You mention a 65C cycle. Is that the dishwasher? There's a lot of food particles in there that can get into your bottle if you use one to clean.I always wonder about your bottling environment though. If your doing it out in the garage, it's possible that all those spores you mentioned before are getting into the mix perhaps...

[Shanna]

I use one of those squirted things on the bottling tree and it seems to be doing a good job for me. I aslo keep my starsan mix for about 6 months. The last one was even starting to go a weird brown colour before I ditched it but the oh was fine and no infections occurred.

You mention a 65C cycle. Is that the dishwasher? There's a lot of food particles in there that can get into your bottle if you use one to clean.I always wonder about your bottling environment though. If your doing it out in the garage, it's possible that all those spores you mentioned before are getting into the mix perhaps...

I bottle in the kitchen, after taking bottles out of dish washer to make sure that there is no residue in the bottles. I then use starsan as described. I am not 100% convinced that the dishwasher is at fault as I have been using that for over 2 years. More likely old bottles stored in shed are picking up spores and might not be getting cleaned properly by the dish  without a problem till I started using that washer addition. I did have issues with insufficient quantity of yeast with some previous fermentation & that is something I will remedy going forward.

Shanna

[Bubbles]

I have had one beer with a definite infection (acetobacter in Belgian golden ale) so I am not exactly typhoid Shanna just yet. I can't explain that one since I have not had anything since then.

Unfortunately, I've tasted several beers from you that I suspected were infected. The Irish Red you did for the GCB comp last year was so infected it was undrinkable. A cider you brought to the meet a couple of months ago was definitely infected also. And if I taste a beer at a SD meet that I think is infected, I always say it to the brewer. I think part of the problem here is that you are not tasting serious flaws and infections in your own beers.

The GCB amber is a perfect example. Three people at the meet told you it tasted solventy, but you dismissed that out of hand because you had fermented it under temperature control. This flaw was then confirmed by the judges at the comp. It's probably more worrying that you couldn't taste it yourself. How about tasting your own beers alongside a commercial example or two? Might be helpful.

My general experience is that at least one thing goes awry each & every brew day despite preparing several days in advance & using check lists of prior problems. Sometimes the problems are of my own making & sometimes they are equipment failures such as leaking tap, kettle element burning or pump failing. I am trying to keep a backup of most parts I am using to help avoid this. Will definitely be updating my brewing notes to put additional emphasis on the need for greater attention to yeast, sanitation. and temp control.

Notes are the best way to go. Keeping track of everything. Dissect every stage of your process - replace equipment where necessary, calibrate thermometers, take temp and gravity readings, use fresh everything (especially vials of yeast and hops) and above all, simplify your process! Messing about with HERMS and decoction is pointless until you can ferment a simple ale.

Apologies if this all this sounds a little harsh, it's well intended advice. 

Molc has a great point about your brewing shed. The other evening at the barrel fill, when I wasn't being eaten alive by bugs, I was looking at all the crud in that roof you want to get replaced. It looks pretty grim, I can't imagine it's a sanitary place to be preparing beer.

[molc]

I'm actually a fan of HERMS because it simplifies my process. Everything was coming out too dry before I started using it, as I couldn't hold mash temp. Now it's just a case of turn on the pump, heat the sparge to target temp +2 and let it rip. Decoction is just asking for pain in your life though. There be dragons over there

I agree on the fermenting simple ale though. It's a great way to dial everything in and is no less delicious. I've messed with a few high gravity beers in the last while and haven't been happy with the results, until perhaps maybe the most recent one. You have to have your pitching and oxygenation spot on to get a good result as you push the ABV.

[Leann ull]

Feck thats coming across as putting the boot it.

Its actually quite hard to make really shit beer, there I've said it but some of us seem to be naturally gifted at it.
Basic brewing only comes down to 2 things fermentation temperature and hygiene thats all.
If you can keep you temp +/- 4 degrees you have half a chance.

Unless you clean like the nuns properly you are wasting your time, fuck this shit with bleach and vinegar as well I don't care what anybody says, use pbw or W5 if you want to be tight about it and God gave us starsan for a reason.



   

[Bubbles]

Didn't intend to put boot in!!

Shanna is trying to solve these recurring issues he's been having. No point in agreeing that there's only been one infected beer out of his brewery, when it's not the case. That's helping nobody.

At the risk of repeating it one more time in this thread.. Sanitation and fermentation are the first things to get right. After that you're away..