Leann Follain Brew Day Double batch double brewer.

[Beerbuddha]

The elements might have had build up but no black or scorching. The rims is clean. If it was burnt it would not be clean now. Maybe too much roast malts. No carafa was used. Last beer I made was pilsner and it's fantastic. So ratio roast...... If your not making mistakes your not trying.

[Beerbuddha]

17% roast malt in grain bill

[Will_D]

I am not a friend is measuring them in a lab.

Some friend with some lab! Has he access to HPGLC or what?

[Beerbuddha]

I don't know what that means Will. My guess is it's over the head of most people following the post so I'd rather keep it simple as in homebrew orientated. So as molc posted....yeast viability cell count to myth bust how long yeast lasts for in a homebrew set up. I'm lucky to have a contact help for the intarest of the post and to ask too many questions I might be an annoyance.....you know what lab technicians are like!

[Jonnycheech]

I am not a friend is measuring them in a lab.

Some friend with some lab! Has he access to HPGLC or what?

High Pressure Gas Liquid Chromotography? I thought it was either gas or liquid, couldn't be both.

[Beerbuddha]

Guys......you seem like very well-educated home brewers. Do you have any information or experience that might help new to the hobby guys or more experienced ones like myself in relation to the post?

[Jonnycheech]

I think Wil is more of a chemist then myself. I work in a lab but i don't have access to any equipment that would be of any use to home brewers unfortunately.

You're lucky to access these tests yourself, most commercial brewers wouldn't i'd imagine. There would be a fair amount of work involved to the tester if the methods weren't already set up and controlled for the analytes in question. Does you friend run these tests routinely?

[Slev]

Just a few questions /thoughts to kick off a root cause:

Material
- high percentage roast (already discussed)
    - certain roast may have harsh aftertaste of used in high %
- issue with malt
  - could the barley have been over malted when supplied (unlikely)
- mis labelled malt
- temperary  bye product of fermentation

Method
- step mash
  - raising the temp between mash steps. Grain sitting on vessel bottom, while heat applied leading to localised overheating (was there any agitation during temp rise?)
- temp rise rate
  - how fast did the temp raise from first to second temp mash? And to boil (burner for the mash and elements for the boil?)
- build up on elements (already discussed - not thing of note observed ) elements are low density (guessing from pic - wattage?)


Environment
- fermentation temp inappropriate (unlikely if separate fermenters showing off flavour)

Equipment
- equipment (vessels, elements) with deposits/film on floor/walls/surfaces prior to brew
- pump components adding heat (unlikely)
- measurement equipment faulty/inaccurate (ie hydrometer in relation to abv) or not consistent (using different equipment to measure Og and fg)
- fermenter not cleaned/ off flavour from cleaning residue (unlikely if same flavour detected from different fermenters)
- plate chiller contains build up



Man
- used wrong malt (eg too high a % of chocolate)
- used burner at higher output than normal
- mis-read measurements (in relation to abv)
- taster is over sensitive to detected ashtray, (may fade with conditioning)

[mick02]

Just a few questions /thoughts to kick off a root cause:

Material
- high percentage roast (already discussed)
    - certain roast may have harsh aftertaste of used in high %
- issue with malt
  - could the barley have been over malted when supplied (unlikely)
- mis labelled malt
- temperary  bye product of fermentation

Method
- step mash
  - raising the temp between mash steps. Grain sitting on vessel bottom, while heat applied leading to localised overheating (was there any agitation during temp rise?)
- temp rise rate
  - how fast did the temp raise from first to second temp mash? And to boil (burner for the mash and elements for the boil?)
- build up on elements (already discussed - not thing of note observed ) elements are low density (guessing from pic - wattage?)


Environment
- fermentation temp inappropriate (unlikely if separate fermenters showing off flavour)

Equipment
- equipment (vessels, elements) with deposits/film on floor/walls/surfaces prior to brew
- pump components adding heat (unlikely)
- measurement equipment faulty/inaccurate (ie hydrometer in relation to abv) or not consistent (using different equipment to measure Og and fg)
- fermenter not cleaned/ off flavour from cleaning residue (unlikely if same flavour detected from different fermenters)
- plate chiller contains build up



Man
- used wrong malt (eg too high a % of chocolate)
- used burner at higher output than normal
- mis-read measurements (in relation to abv)
- taster is over sensitive to detected ashtray, (may fade with conditioning)

Just on the above ... I would calibrate all your measuring equipment (weighing scales, hydrometers, thermometers) to make sure that the readings you're getting are accurate

[Thewicklowhopscompany]

Hi,
In the spirit of things do you want to send me a sample and I can measure IBU, colour, final gravity ABV and do some micro on it?

Philip

[Beerbuddha]

Allot to digest. Some good taught ideas all valid. As said maybe after conditioning it may fade. I usually don't bother too much with smells ect from fermentation but as it's part of this brew I want to feed all observations into the post.

I will look into all suggestions. I'm leaning towards too much roast malt as 17% seems allot. It was lower in recipe but colors did not match up when I imputed into beersmith so I added more roast. We will wait to see when it comes to bottling.
As for lab work I'm not sure about the answers to the questions. It is a hassle to get an already busy person to do the tests so I'm not pushing my luck with questions at this time.  I'm gonna ask about those test wicklowhopscompany first and if no joy I will gladly take you up on offer cheers.

I can look at the RCA if it's still at bottling and input replies 

[Beerbuddha]

I have moved jobs within work and haven't had access to hot caustic and give my usual plate chiller clean. This could be a possibility 50/50 I will investigate

[Slev]

Grand

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

Is this a pic of your OG at about 1.057? (or was this when wort was warm)... Og of 1.057 with fg of 1.016 would give  abv similar to what the lab found

[Slev]

I think Wil is more of a chemist then myself. I work in a lab but i don't have access to any equipment that would be of any use to home brewers unfortunately.

You're lucky to access these tests yourself, most commercial brewers wouldn't i'd imagine. There would be a fair amount of work involved to the tester if the methods weren't already set up and controlled for the analytes in question. Does you friend run these tests routinely?

Topical. This is an actual FDA warning letter to a pharma contract lab in August. scroll down to the "shared space with non drug operations ' section, just before the conclusion. Tis a bit amusing alright

https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm620002.htm

[Jonnycheech]

That couldn't be real, could it? Jesus that's one absolute cowboy operation if so. I didn't think that stuff could go on today as modern day controls and regulations are so tight, but this guy is actually manufacturing drugs, unbelievable. That lab should be shut down ASAP, before he kills people.

The fact he has a micro brewery in the lab (major contaminant) is worrying, but it's the lack of validated methods, proper controls and educated staff that is astounding me. They don't actually sound like they know what they're doing.