Anyone used lactobacillus

[imark]

would love to do a flanders red someday

Amen! 

If you check out the More Beer - Russian River interview on youtube you'll hear Vinnie describe how they mash at a very high temperature to leave a lot of residual sugars post fermentation to the bacteria to go to work on. Check it out http://youtu.be/FmUjoJkKoYs

the Mad Fermentationist does a decent blog too http://www.themadfermentationist.com/

[mr hoppy]

Made my starter this evening. 3 litres of 1025 wort with WLP 677. I've read that lacto propagates best at body temperature so I've put the starter in a incubator made out of a cardboard box lined with polystyrene and tin foil with a hole cut in top through which I'm shining a desk light to heat things up. I've got the starter in a black wooly hat as well - as I've read that the lacto doesn't really like too much direct light. I'll stick up a picture if I figure out how.

It seems some commercial lacto strains are designed to be wimpy / hop averse so I'll probably just mash hop with 5 IBUs of Hallertau as a lot of people seem to have difficulty achieiving a lot of sourness with this strain. Planning to do a 60/20/20 wheat malt/munich/pils grist, mashing at 66 degrees, 5g of coriander and 30g of salt just before flameout, and pitching with the lacto and S-33. This is different to the Belgian sours which are soured in the secondary, but similar to a Berliner Weiss - might try making one if this works out.

[johnrm]

Sourness can be introduced by deliberately allowing some wort to go off, the boil it to sterilise it.

On my (extensive) to do list is a Guinness clone, one of the ingredients is a litre of soured Guinness to give it a bite.

[mr hoppy]

Same thing with Schneider Weiss Aventinus. They add some lacto fermented wort just before the boil to give it a bit of a twang.

Nice lemony flavour off the starter.

[Gav]

Gav

Posts: 11
   

Re: Effects Of Too Much Steeping Grains
« Reply #5 on: Today at 09:15:37 pm »
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Lads I plan on getting into sour beers soon too, I also go to the states every year and they have a great selection of them, The Franciscian Well has a few too. Take a look at "The Mad Fermentationist" blog, lots of info on Lacto, Brett and the other sour bugs. Also  Basic Brewing Radio is a great podcast for all things brewing wise. Keep us updated on the sour brews lads, I've still got the all grain training wheels on, first batch is in the fermenter a week today but il have bugs in one of them in the next few weeks I'd say.

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[johnrm]

Hey Gav, are you having difficulties posting? Post looks odd.

[mr hoppy]

Thought I'd put up a follow up post considering how hard I found it to get information on WLP 677 on the internet. Had a bottle of this, this evening. Clean sourness, definitely sour but not mouth puckering - although I think that's partly because of the 30g salt addition. I think the hot weather was a huge help  as was using a tiny amount of hops in an inefficient way. Will definitely try again.

[MAF]

Thought I'd put up a follow up post considering how hard I found it to get information on WLP 677 on the internet. Had a bottle of this, this evening. Clean sourness, definitely sour but not mouth puckering - although I think that's partly because of the 30g salt addition. I think the hot weather was a huge help  as was using a tiny amount of hops in an inefficient way. Will definitely try again.

Do you plan on aging any of it? Be interesting to see what a year or two in the bottle would do to it.

[mr hoppy]

I'll probably have a few sneaky bottles while the weather's good - it's pretty damn drinkable now and it's definitely a sumer beer - and age the rest. There's good sourness now but from what I can gather Berliner Weisses brewed using the same approach do get sourer over time in the bottle.

I also put some Rose de Gambrinus dregs in the bottling bucket for the last 5 litres for the hell of it, so I've put those bottles away for a good long time.

[biertourist]

Now that my login here finally works again...

I've played around with lacto before in isolation and in a sour blend.


Summary of this little critter:
Ideal temperature: Human body-like temps; 37C (although Wyeast says 95F for some reason), technically anywhere from 16-60C it can survive
Ideal pH: above 3.8 (reproduction stops at 3.8 although fermentation can continue lower)
O2 preference: Doesn't like O2 but O2 won't kill it and it can still ferment and grow in the presence of O2
Hop Resilience: No -Lactobacillus delbrucki, the main strain you find in brewing is SUPER sensitive to hop IBUs greater than 10 IBUs can hurt it; other strains like L. Brevis are more hop tolerant but low levels are recommended still
Alcohol Tolerance: 8% ABV (works much slower beyond this point)
Sugars Consumed: Lacto Delbruckii is strange as it wants glucose/dextrose; obviously most lacto strains can consume lactose; some strains are multi fermentative and can eat a larger array of sugars
Acids Produced: Again Lacto delbruckii is homofermentative so if fed glucose/dextrose it will only produce lactic acid but other strains will produce other organic acids that aren't quite as "clean" tasting
Growth period: Generally reaches optimal growth 4 days after pitching / incubation
Starch: Positive effect on growth
Shape: Rods to coccobacilli (delbruckii has l-shaped rods)
Nutrient requirements: carbs, amino acids, nucleic acids, vitamins, fatty acids (pretty much the same as yeast)
5% honey in a starter has been proven to help growth rate and rate of production of acid
Acetic acid has a negative impact on lacto


It's actually VERY difficult to get significant sourness form a single pitch of cultured single strain lacto delbruckii; a mixed culture of lots of different lacto strains might produce more sourness as the lacto can then use different sugars to produce acid.

If you're going to "Sour mash" you want to be careful to keep oxygen away; acetobater likes oxygen (vinegar producer that converts alcohol into vinegar) and so does the whole collection of nasty Enterobacteria -these are the bacteria that smell like garbage / dirty diapers and can actually produce toxins that can hurt you.  Do your sour mash under a CO2 blanket. (In a corney keg works but dedicate that set of seals to sour brewing.)


Lacto isn't that hard to kill so if you're fermenting in a glass carboy with only lacto, and not a mixed blend that includes Brett which is harder to kill, I wouldn't necessarily worry about having to dedicate the equipment to sour beer only. (Use an alkaline sanitizer, then a rinse, and then an acid-based sanitize and you should be good-to-go.)


Lactic acid is a very soft and neutral sourness that doesn't seem that sour even in decent quantities; if you want lots of sour you want to include an organism that will also produce a bit of acetic acid (pediococcus or Brett) OR you want to do an extended sour mash which can produce VERY sour wort while you'll then blend to get the sourness that you want.


YES the German's use "acid malt" or create a small covered sour mash and add it to a great many beers, but it's NOT for the purpose of making sour beer (except in some very rare beers like Gose and Lichtenhainer); it's used to adjust the mash PH in light-colored beers when the water in the area is high in bicarbonates (alkaline); the point is to adjust the mash ph in a way that is compliant with the Rheinheitsgebot.


I've had a couple of lightly soured summery beers and honestly you don't really notice it; it just makes the beer seem more refreshing and "summery"; a decent bit of brewing salts plus a light sourness and high carbonation really makes GREAT hot weather beer. (Even with a good bit of smoked malt throw into the grist ala Gratzer or Lichtenhainer.)


Adam

[Ciderhead]

where have you been you and your tomes have been missed