Author Topic: Yeast starters:  (Read 1631 times)

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Yeast starters:
« on: January 06, 2013, 02:29:19 PM »
Ive a stout that Il be transferring to secondary on tue/wed. Im doing an American IPA next which has an OG of 1074 on beersmith.

I pitched the stout with a 1 litre starter of notty (stout was 1040 OG). Will there be enough cells left in that stout FV for me just to pitch the IPA straight in on top of it? Or do I need to do an extra 1 litre starter to boost the cell count?

On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Ciderhead

  • Guest
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2013, 03:16:16 PM »
lots of nasty stories about failure doing this as you have way too much rather than too little and things tend to go mad. I think you may have been better doing the IPA first and then onto the stout
I have to admit I have never done it personally as I don't want trub touching my virgin wort ;)
I would suggest washing yeast you have and starting again from scratch. Tube did a great wiki on washing yeast.

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 05:08:05 PM »
Quote
lots of nasty stories about failure doing this as you have way too much rather than too little and things tend to go mad. I think you may have been better doing the IPA first and then onto the stout
I have to admit I have never done it personally as I don't want trub touching my virgin wort ;)
I would suggest washing yeast you have and starting again from scratch. Tube did a great wiki on washing yeast.

Ive done some yeast washing so will do that. Will I have enough for the IPA with the washed yeast do you think?
On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Ciderhead

  • Guest
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2013, 05:31:17 PM »
Quote
Quote
lots of nasty stories about failure doing this as you have way too much rather than too little and things tend to go mad. I think you may have been better doing the IPA first and then onto the stout
I have to admit I have never done it personally as I don't want trub touching my virgin wort ;)
I would suggest washing yeast you have and starting again from scratch. Tube did a great wiki on washing yeast.

Ive done some yeast washing so will do that. Will I have enough for the IPA with the washed yeast do you think?

Usually blowoff is the biggest problem with this you have between x2 and 3 times too much, chuck half in and keep the other half in the fridge for 24hours later or whatever gap you saw .
I would doubt that you would need it but its there as a just in case.
Mr Malty has something on this let us know how you get on.

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2013, 05:51:29 PM »
I want to get this brew going on Tue. I was meant to do it yesterday but HBW didnt have what I needed. Ive a 1 litre starter of notty already done & chilled in the fridge (made from 1 x 11g sachet) Will I just use this for the ipa? (will it be enough?)

I can wash the yeast from the stout & use that again on other brews.

Thanks for the mrmalty link. Regarding that - is there a way of knowing the approx cell count of your yeast from the amount of it thats settled to the bottom of my mason jar?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 05:55:50 PM by Hop_Bomb »
On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Ciderhead

  • Guest
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2013, 06:33:50 PM »
Quote
I want to get this brew going on Tue. I was meant to do it yesterday but HBW didnt have what I needed. Ive a 1 litre starter of notty already done & chilled in the fridge (made from 1 x 11g sachet) Will I just use this for the ipa? (will it be enough?)

I can wash the yeast from the stout & use that again on other brews.

Thanks for the mrmalty link. Regarding that - is there a way of knowing the approx cell count of your yeast from the amount of it thats settled to the bottom of my mason jar?

Actually that mr malty really tells you nothing, I suppose you could measure what you have and calculate from there?

Beersmith tells you how much you need if you use a starter don't forget to tick if using stir plate it really boosts yeast present
Notty packet yeast only needs hydrating not on a stir plate please say you didn't make a starter which is only really for liquid yeasts :(
Packet yeasts are cheap and loaded to the gunnels with yeast cells they can race through a starter
You might be ok if you cillled it
I did a pale ale yesterday with notty and didn't even hydrate just sprinkled on top, it took off in 4 hrs and going like a bomb now :)
I have to say mine as well as sploshing into fermentor gets the drill and paddle and so was well aerated
Why is your nottie in fridge did you make it last week and want to preserve?

Let it come up to temp before you pitch to avoid shock ideally you should have only 3-4 degrees between wort and pitch, that includes liquid vials into starters.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 06:39:39 PM by Ciderhead »

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 06:40:24 PM »
It tells you how many ml of slurry yeast to pitch so thats good.

Yip made a starter for my dry notty that went into the stout. Once again learning the hard way haha. The one in the fridge was the one I was planning on using yesterday. Thats also a dry notty starter.

So what problems shall I expect for making a starter instead of just hydrating?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 06:56:11 PM by Hop_Bomb »
On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 06:53:17 PM »
Quote
Quote
Packet yeasts are cheap and loaded to the gunnels with yeast cells they can race through a starter
You might be ok if you cillled it

Yeah I chilled it overnight so the yeast would settle to the bottom & I could pour off most of the wort. I got about 80ml of yeast from that packet. I pitched it on the stout & it starter firing in three hours. Lovely thick krausen. Its day 3 today & still bubbling away every 20 seconds or so. Am I in the clear?
On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Ciderhead

  • Guest
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2013, 08:11:41 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Packet yeasts are cheap and loaded to the gunnels with yeast cells they can race through a starter
You might be ok if you cillled it

Yeah I chilled it overnight so the yeast would settle to the bottom & I could pour off most of the wort. I got about 80ml of yeast from that packet. I pitched it on the stout & it starter firing in three hours. Lovely thick krausen. Its day 3 today & still bubbling away every 20 seconds or so. Am I in the clear?

Absolutely in the clear phew

Back to Mt Malty again about starters
http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

A starter typically doesn't have enough nutrients in it to properly support complete cell growth from dried yeast.  The cell walls of dried yeast are fragile due to the drying process.  Pitching dried yeast into a starter depletes the yeast of their energy reserves just coming out of the dried state while trying to cope with the starter environment.

Creating a starter with dry yeast is bad for the yeast, and often creates an underpitching situation.

Dry yeast is so cheap, just pitch two packs directly into the wort if you think its marginal, or be sure to rehydrate in water.
I have in my inventory 3 Notties and 3 US05's as the stuff lasts for years

No starter is necessary.

What you are doing is like giving it a false start so not ideal
Underpitching usually results in slow start up off flaviours potential risk of infection  and may not fully ferment.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 08:15:36 PM by Ciderhead »

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 09:15:43 PM »
Gotcha! Thanks for quick & detailed replies Ciderhead. That mr.malty calculator is bang on as beersmith calculated the same no of cells.

For my OG of 1074 I need 84ml of washed yeast (slurry) or 1.6 packs of dry yeast.

My final question on this (for now :)) is if I go the washed yeast route can I pitch my washed yeast straight in (once at room temp) or do I have to make a starter for that?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 09:16:29 PM by Hop_Bomb »
On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 09:41:24 PM »
Im transferring the stout to secondary on Tue night so will wash that yeast the same night & brew the following eve. So its gona be freshly washed.

So you reckon 30ml of yeast & not 84ml as per mr.malty?
On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2013, 10:16:43 PM »
Grand job. Il pitch two viles worth. I know there was a group buy for vials but where do people brewers usually buy them here?
On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Hop Bomb

  • Posts: 2078
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2013, 10:26:40 PM »
Cheers.
On tap: Flanders, Gose,
Fermenting: Oatmeal Brown, 200ish Fathoms,
Ageing: bretted 1890 export stout.
To brew:  2015 RIS, Kellerbier, Altbier.

Ciderhead

  • Guest
Re: Yeast starters:
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2013, 10:41:10 PM »
Quote
Gotcha! Thanks for quick & detailed replies Ciderhead. That mr.malty calculator is bang on as beersmith calculated the same no of cells.

For my OG of 1074 I need 84ml of washed yeast (slurry) or 1.6 packs of dry yeast.

My final question on this (for now :)) is if I go the washed yeast route can I pitch my washed yeast straight in (once at room temp) or do I have to make a starter for that?

As tube says, however unless you want to keep it  I'd just split in two, bang one in and it will kick off.
 If it doesn't which I would doubt chuck in the second.
Check out what Wyeast say about over pitching
If you keep the second one you will need a starter to get it going on something else in a 3-4 weeks

« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 10:53:34 PM by Ciderhead »