National Homebrew Club Ireland

Hi folks,

Just wondering if anyone has used one of these handy RO systems.  Simple enough,  3 stage system,  works off mains pressure.  I know it would be slow,  and the data on Amazon  doesn't give much detail.
But for about €50, is it worth it to have a source of ro?  Or would it be just buying frustration?



https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0015QBCNC/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1475684663&sr=8-5&keywords=reverse+osmosis#

Hi Slev,

We in the North County have bought about 4 of these at least.

Have a read here:

http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,16138.0.html (http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,16138.0.html)

Also other threads on NCB mention this system

Thanks Will

Did read that thread,  but assumed that it was a more complex system.

Will try and measure the water pressure here tomorrow evening .  This time of the year,  it is grand,  but does drop off significantly in the summer.  Guessing this could be an issue with this kind of system?

Yes water pressure is always an issue with RO systems. If you have low water pressure you can use a booster pump. These are available on ebay from china.

Interested in this as well! I like the idea of connecting and disconnecting as I need it.

@Will, do North County have 3 stage or 5 stage?

I bought my unit in Spain and asked the guy in the shop if he thought I needed a booster pump. The municipal water pressure in Spain is much higher than here in Ireland (probably due to the amount of high rise apartments) he said that if the water pressure was low then it would slow down the throughput and generate more waste water.
PS I bought the unit with the pump included

How long does it take to fill,  say 25l with the pumped system?

Just measured the standing pressure -  2.55 bar (37psi).  And that is as good as it has ever been.  Which I guess would be sufficient for the non pumped system - But when it drops below that. 
Have you retro fitted any of the systems with a booster pump Will?

I have one very similar to this and run it just off mains pressure, it takes around 2-2.5 hours to collect 25L.

How portable are these? I'm not in a position to install one permanently but if I could hook it up to the garden tap, collect the water and then pack it away again, it could work for me.

Quote from: redshift on October 07, 2016, 06:46:48 PM
I have one very similar to this and run it just off mains pressure, it takes around 2-2.5 hours to collect 25L.

As in the pumped version?

Quote from: Slev on October 07, 2016, 08:20:08 PM

Quote from: redshift on October 07, 2016, 06:46:48 PM
I have one very similar to this and run it just off mains pressure, it takes around 2-2.5 hours to collect 25L.

As in the pumped version?

No it's similar to the pic in the op, not pumped just works off the mains pressure.

Quote from: redshift on October 07, 2016, 08:56:16 PM

Quote from: Slev on October 07, 2016, 08:20:08 PM

Quote from: redshift on October 07, 2016, 06:46:48 PM
I have one very similar to this and run it just off mains pressure, it takes around 2-2.5 hours to collect 25L.

As in the pumped version?

No it's similar to the pic in the op, not pumped just works off the mains pressure.

OK.  That's pretty good.  Do you have fairly good pressured mains consistantly?

And

@Acott: They are the £50 3 stage ones. Delivered via PM it was €130 for 2

@Slev: As posted I am getting 9 L per hour. No one yet has fitted booster pump afaik

@Redshift: Yes thats about what I would get

@Brewdorg; They are totally portable! You just need access to a mains water connection, ideally with a 3/4" bsp tap connector. Most garden watering taps fit this definition. You can take of from the storage tank 9as the ro membrane will remove the spders ab other crap) but at best you will get less than 1 bar (1 bar = 32' of water head)

Thanks for the info.

Had nearly taken myself into buying the Vyair pumped 3 stage  plus DI stage system.  But think I will give this a one a go.  And as you say,  can always retro fit a booster pump if need be. 

Ordered the compact OS system (and a spare set of filters)

Thanks for the help folks.

And anyone in the North tipp area  will be welcome to borrow it.

Any idea what pump would work with this system?

From what I can see @Darren996 this pump should be more than enough
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00J1JLZDC/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1475929200&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=reverse+osmosis+pump

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Maybe we should buy one for the club 😀

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Quote from: TonyC on October 08, 2016, 01:21:42 PM
Maybe we should buy one for the club

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Great idea Tony

Quote from: TonyC on October 08, 2016, 01:21:42 PM
Maybe we should buy one for the club 😀

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I third that idea

A great idea!

North County has 4, the first 2 were snaffled by the importers (Nigel and James) so now the club only has 2! !

Down here in the Deep South, we get our RO straight from the River Lee!  :P
Even though Lee water is very low in minerals, I was thinking about RO to provide a consistent base, and that it may end up cheaper than doing several water analyses as the river changes during the seasons.
This particular RO system seems very good value. How are the North County users getting on with it?

Received the ro unit, and hooked it up to the outside tap this evening.  Did the flush/rinse then ran it and got the following :
60 minute run time
2.6l of treated water collected
10.5l of run-off water to drain
Pressure at the tap was 36psi (2.48bar)
TDS of untreated water 422
TDS of treated water 21 (but wasn't careful about the bucket been clean)

Just to note,  that this was its first run.  Water was taken from before a water softener, ie it is quite hard.  It's the 50gpd model.

(just as a rough guide,  it took 42secs to fill 10l form the tap,  which is fed from 1/2inch piping,  which for me is a pretty strong flow rate)

Just for information :
Left the ro system running over night.  Filled 30l in 12 hours.  TDS reading of 18ppm. Pressure at the tap seemed very similar to previous ie approx 2.4bar (didn't measure it this time,  but took about same time to fill 10 l)

Quote from: Slev on October 29, 2016, 11:12:32 AM
Just for information :
Left the ro system running over night.  Filled 30l in 12 hours.  TDS reading of 18ppm. Pressure at the tap seemed very similar to previous ie approx 2.4bar (didn't measure it this time,  but took about same time to fill 10 l)

Thanks for the info Slev, are you going to have this running permanently or just hook it up as required? Is it a big job installing? Is there a water pressure gauge in the unit?

Only when needed.  It's very handy to connect to the outdoor tap. Just screw on.  And it is small, so easy to put away. I just left it on the ground when in use.   The drain,  outlet,  and connecting hoses are approx 2 m.  No gauge with it.   

Will  upload a pic later

Hoses are 3 metres actually

Handy out, thanks

Just an update.  Got a booster pump from ali which results in 10litres per hour. 

Got a link fir that pump by any chance? Also how loud is it.

Will dig it out.  Not loud at all.  Slight hum,  but if the piping is in contact with something,  you may get vibration clattering

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https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1418933869.html#autostay

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Cheers!

Whoever bumped this thread just cost me €60  :P

Be aware that its a 24 Volt pump!!

Sorry about that.

Howryis - I recently got this compact unit. I got a cheapo TDS meter as well, and it's telling me the RO water is 0 ppm, which I'm sceptical about, but took it to mean that it was fairly pure. In any case, I brewed today for the first time with the water, making a simple smash pale ale. I used Bru'n water to work out the salt and acid additions. The predicted mash pH was 5.3, but it came out a bit higher at 5.7, which isn't crazy high, but definitely not as low as I would like for a pale beer. I had been using Ashbeck bottled water prior to this and would normally be much closer to the Bru'n water predicted mash pH. I'm thinking the water might not be as pure as the TDS meter would have me believe (as I've read Bru'n water is usually bang on for RO water), but there's also scope for a routine screwup, such as adding the wrong amount of a salt or acid. I'm wondering what other people's experiences with the water from these units has been, and if anyone has used the water in conjunction with Bru'n water?

Quote from: braich on April 23, 2017, 08:34:00 PM
I'm thinking the water might not be as pure as the TDS meter would have me believe

You could test the RO water with an alkalinity kit to be sure.

Did you calibrate the ph pen before use ?
Is brun water set up correctly ? No idea if you have used it before so....If I input lets say my acid as strenght of 30% concentration when its 80% big difference. There are other inputs that cause issues.

Just some quick taughts

Quote from: Beerbuddha on April 24, 2017, 08:09:59 AM
Did you calibrate the ph pen before use ?
Is brun water set up correctly ? No idea if you have used it before so....If I input lets say my acid as strenght of 30% concentration when its 80% big difference. There are other inputs that cause issues.

Just some quick taughts

Hey - cheers for the reply. A basic screwup is always a possibility, so I wanted to check for other peoples' experiences with this water to help rule that in/out. Yeah I bought the pH meter that was recently purchased as a group buy here, and I calibrate it every brewday, though it doesn't seem to drift by all that much. I have used Bru'n water for the last ten brews or so, and am pretty sure it's set up right - I double checked the parameters after this brew just to be sure. With Ashbeck bottled water I was getting pretty close to the Bru'n water predicated pH in previous brews, which makes me suspect the water this time around. I used all viking pale ale malt, so maybe the malt was just a lower EBC than I inputted into the spreadsheet (5.5 EBC), though changing that up or down a few EBC points doesn't seem to change the predicated mash pH that much in the software.

Quote from: Dr Jacoby on April 23, 2017, 10:09:09 PM

Quote from: braich on April 23, 2017, 08:34:00 PM
I'm thinking the water might not be as pure as the TDS meter would have me believe

You could test the RO water with an alkalinity kit to be sure.

Yeah that could help settle it. Those kits aren't that much - about 8 pound on brewuk. I was hoping to get some leaf hops from them anyway.

With RO it's hard to get accurate PH reading as there is nothing to buffer with left in the water.  My RO is reading around 7 ppm and I use the water treatment profile from beer smith and it gives me my desired PH number.

Quote from: DEMPSEY on April 24, 2017, 10:11:42 AM
With RO it's hard to get accurate PH reading as there is nothing to buffer with left in the water.  My RO is reading around 7 ppm and I use the water treatment profile from beer smith and it gives me my desired PH number.

Yeah I suppose the pH 5.7 reading I got is probably within the margin of error of the Bru'n water software and the probe, but it just seemed pretty high when I was getting fairly predictable readings with the Ashbeck water. I probably just need to brew again and see if its still out. Hmm - maybe I will also try the alkalinity test and see where the water from the RO system stands. Other options might include getting a fourth DI resin stage for the RO system. That should definitely get it down to 0 ppm.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Compact-Reverse-Osmosis-Deionisation-Tubing/dp/B00K4D2NIK/ref=pd_sim_199_12?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7G75JP3DN1C6356BG7AP

I got one of those tds pen jobies, and get somewhere in the mid teens, which coincides with brun water.
Have only recently started to use beersmith, and found that it was giving  very similar ph and salt additions to brun water. For last brew, i used the viking malt also (free with bulldog mill from homebrewwest!). I have a cheap ph pen, which was giving a low ph reading during the mash (after salt and acid, as per brun Water). I trust in brun water, rather than the ph pen ( possibly one of my worst buys - just dont thrust it, but it puts doubt into my mind)

Quote from: Slev on April 26, 2017, 12:12:10 AM
I got one of those tds pen jobies, and get somewhere in the mid teens, which coincides with brun water.
Have only recently started to use beersmith, and found that it was giving  very similar ph and salt additions to brun water. For last brew, i used the viking malt also (free with bulldog mill from homebrewwest!). I have a cheap ph pen, which was giving a low ph reading during the mash (after salt and acid, as per brun Water). I trust in brun water, rather than the ph pen ( possibly one of my worst buys - just dont thrust it, but it puts doubt into my mind)

Ha - yeah I got the viking malt free with the mill too. That was a great deal. My pH meter is reasonable, which makes me question the water rather than my readings, but I probably need to brew again and see if the same thing happens. However, it sounds like your pH readings are going the other direction, which doesn't suggest that the water from your unit has much in the way of bicarbonates. Maybe the purity of the RO water depends on your starting water. Our tapwater here has moderate hardness. I'll probably get the alkalinity test kit and see what it's coming out as.

I found my ph to be a bit high as well when I started using the RO water first.  Now I add a small bit of acid malt to the grist (max 2%) and it brings it down to the 5.3 or 5.4 range.  Dark beers like Stouts don't need the acid malt addition as the dark malts bring the ph down anyway.  I don't use Bru'n water though I get my Salt additions from Beersmith.

Quote from: Damofto on April 27, 2017, 09:59:33 AM
I found my ph to be a bit high as well when I started using the RO water first.  Now I add a small bit of acid malt to the grist (max 2%) and it brings it down to the 5.3 or 5.4 range.  Dark beers like Stouts don't need the acid malt addition as the dark malts bring the ph down anyway.  I don't use Bru'n water though I get my Salt additions from Beersmith.

Yeah I guess with trial and error I can get it back to the right range. I usually adjust with lactic acid. Do you find that you need the acid malt adjustment with beers of a moderate colour - ie. an amber ale? I'm brewing an amber with the RO water next and Bru'n water predicts that I will need to add no acid, and even a little baking soda to get my pH in the right range. I'm wondering if I might get away with no baking soda, if the pH is coming in higher than expected with this water.

My ambers are coming in spot on with RO, no adjustment. The crystal really seems to bring the ph down.

It all depends on grist and volumes though, so you'll need to figure it out as you go.

Going forward, I'm planning acid malt for pale beers, nothing for ambers or stout.

Quote from: molc on April 27, 2017, 10:45:02 AM
My ambers are coming in spot on with RO, no adjustment. The crystal really seems to bring the ph down.

It all depends on grist and volumes though, so you'll need to figure it out as you go.

Going forward, I'm planning acid malt for pale beers, nothing for ambers or stout.

Cool - that's really helpful. I'll give the amber a bash with no adjustment and if I'm too low I can lash in a little baking soda, though I'm not usually a fan of chasing a given pH on the fly while the mash is going on, as it's easy to overshoot things. It'd be handy if my RO water lined up better with the Bru'n water predictions, but you can't have everything.

I adjust the RO with gypsum and calcium chloride in the HLT, then start the mash and check after 10 minutes. Normally I'll add about 3-4ml of 80% lactic acid and then it's perfect.

The great thing about RO is you learn how to adjust and it's consistent and repeatable.

Quote from: molc on April 27, 2017, 11:14:45 AM
I adjust the RO with gypsum and calcium chloride in the HLT, then start the mash and check after 10 minutes. Normally I'll add about 3-4ml of 80% lactic acid and then it's perfect.

The great thing about RO is you learn how to adjust and it's consistent and repeatable.

Sounds good. So I guess I just need to learn the ropes with this water and different grain bills and I'll be laughing.

Phosphoric acid has less potential taste impact compared to Lactic. If your ph is too high add a small amount and increase the mash time, ie  if you check the ph after 15 min of mash and it's too high add some phosphoric acid and adjust the ph within the desired range, then mash for a further 60 or 90 minutes to allow the enzymes do their work in their ideal ph range.

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Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on April 27, 2017, 12:35:26 PM
Phosphoric acid has less potential taste impact compared to Lactic. If your ph is too high add a small amount and increase the mash time, ie  if you check the ph after 15 min of mash and it's too high add some phosphoric acid and adjust the ph within the desired range, then mash for a further 60 or 90 minutes to allow the enzymes do their work in their ideal ph range.

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Sounds good. I've read you can get away with 1 mL of lactic acid per gallon in terms of taste impact, but some people can be more sensitive to it than others. Phosphoric would be handy alright.

Quote from: braich on April 27, 2017, 10:17:04 AM

Yeah I guess with trial and error I can get it back to the right range. I usually adjust with lactic acid. Do you find that you need the acid malt adjustment with beers of a moderate colour - ie. an amber ale? I'm brewing an amber with the RO water next and Bru'n water predicts that I will need to add no acid, and even a little baking soda to get my pH in the right range. I'm wondering if I might get away with no baking soda, if the pH is coming in higher than expected with this water.

Like Molc says I don't think its needed for Amber beers, I've only brewed one of the past few months but the PH was in range without any acid malt

For the benefit of new brewers reading this thread:

Water chemistry / additions / subtractions should be at the bottom of you "must do better list"

The list is basically:

1. Sanitation Sanitation Sanitation

2. Temperature control of all stages

3. Time control of the short critical stages like mashing/boiling

4. Ingredients management i.e. use Fresh stuff

5. Kegging / Bottling techniques

Once you have got the above under control then by all means invest in RO / water treatment / CRS ( >:D)

HTH

Will

Very true but if your water is <50ppm Ca (like in Cork) you probably want a teaspoon of CaCl or Gypsum for the yeasties.

Quote from: Slev on April 26, 2017, 12:12:10 AM
I got one of those tds pen jobies, and get somewhere in the mid teens, which coincides with brun water.
Have only recently started to use beersmith, and found that it was giving  very similar ph and salt additions to brun water. For last brew, i used the viking malt also (free with bulldog mill from homebrewwest!). I have a cheap ph pen, which was giving a low ph reading during the mash (after salt and acid, as per brun Water). I trust in brun water, rather than the ph pen ( possibly one of my worst buys - just dont thrust it, but it puts doubt into my mind)

I'm thinking of investing in a similar RO system - how has it been working for you? I've been trying some pale lagers of late and they seem to be missing crispness (not sure how else to describe it). I have temp control, sanitation, pitch rates etc fairly well down (I think) and I adjust my tap water using Brun Water to work out salt/acid additions for a given recipe. So I was thinking/hoping RO would give some improvement - have you noticed a change in your beer since you switched to RO water?

One thing that puts me off is that I don't brew that often (every other month usually) and so the RO would be left idle for long periods. I'm concerned that the filter would get gunked up and end up needing to be replaced too often. How do you store yours between uses?