National Homebrew Club Ireland

Il be doing a little control panel soon for a herms pot & my HLT elements. What PIDs, probes & SSRs are people buying/using?

Cheers. Tom

I went for the cheap Chinese option. It's a REX C-100 PID with SSR and heatsink (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Dual-Digital-PID-Temperature-Controller-Kit-REX-C100-with-SSR-40DA-heat-sink-2m-quality-K/1851006021.html). Works grand too  :)

The sensor that comes with the REX-C100 is a bit shit so I got one like this (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1Pcs-RTD-PT100-2m-Cable-Stainless-Probe-100mm-2-Wires-Temperature-Sensor-50-C-to-400/1468360677.html) instead.

Have a look at my HLT build here (http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,6884.msg87424.html#msg87424).

Nice one Gary. How is the PID going for you?

I went fancy and got the auber instruments ones. They do a fancy ramp soak one that will be the mutts nuts for step mashes.

Get rtd probes for better accuracy

Any links Enda? Do they come assembled with the xlr fitting & the braided cable covering?

Quote from: Hop Bomb on August 13, 2014, 08:50:16 PM
Any links Enda? Do they come assembled with the xlr fitting & the braided cable covering?

Try this
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=249  (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=249)
They've added XLR connectors since I bought mine. I went for the rtd probe plus the braided cable with rtd connector.

I'm using my phone, I can post better info tomorrow

Yeah thats what I need. Ive the T fittings for my tap so they'll screw in nicely. 

Any pros or cons to RTD connector over XLR? Apart from XLR just being sturdier (i wont be swinging them about with a mic on the end)

Quote from: Hop Bomb on August 13, 2014, 08:41:03 PM
Nice one Gary. How is the PID going for you?

I just use mine for heating strike / sparge water water. I haven't got my rims working yet. I find that it over shot the first couple of times but since then its great. I knew SFA about programming it, I'm just using it straight outof the box. 

The auber ones seem to be on all the cool systems but I can't fault mine.

Quote from: Hop Bomb on August 13, 2014, 09:56:42 PM
Yeah thats what I need. Ive the T fittings for my tap so they'll screw in nicely. 

Any pros or cons to RTD connector over XLR? Apart from XLR just being sturdier (i wont be swinging them about with a mic on the end)

No idea Tom. I'd day sturdiness is probably the main thing. They shouldn't get much abuse at the control box end though

I've got an AuberPid but the Chinese "MyPid" are becoming VERY popular and are basically feature identical and cheaper.

You can also flash a lowly STC-1000 to have "PID-like" functionality (I think it IS actually PID functionality but without "fuzzy logic" that is necessary for learning the attributes of your particular hardware and self calibrating.).  -Some guys on HomeBrewTalk have posted instructions for how to flash an STC-1000.


I agree with getting a properly 3 wire temp probe vs. a 2 wire temp probe as it can make up for issues that are introduced from your connectors and switching between different metals automatically; they also don't require recalibration as they enable "autocalibration" of measurement. I have the cheap "RTD" connectors and I HATE them.  They are so difficult to get them properly aligned if you're going to be constantly plugging them in and unplugging them; they are also pretty fragile AND the wires inside are so small soldering them is a HUGE PITA!  -If you're going to leave them permanently plugged in then just save the money and get the RTD connectors; if you're going to unplug and plug them back in then spend the money on the XLRs.

-I designed a single PID control panel that controls both the HLT and the Boil and I have to unplug and plug in the RTD connectors and they drive me crazy.

Advice: Do NOT, NOT bother with a PID controller for your boil kettle- a HUGE complication and increase in cost for NOTHING. You want dial-based PWM control for the boil kettle; don't use a rheostat or you'll just overheat things and burn them out.

More Advice: Switching a PID controller between two different vessels will confuse the hell out of the "fuzzy logic" algorithms; this is NOT where you save money either.  You DO want PID control for the HLT especially if you plan on brewing different batch sizes on a single system; you DO want PID control for controling mash temps if you're doign anythign other than single temp infusions -you also want two separate PID controllers if this is the case.  One for HLT -calibrated to the HLT vessel; and one for mashing calibrated to the mashing vessel and how you mash. (Calibrate while recirculating if you're going to recirculation mash.)

Continued: Oversize your SSR by at least 50% (I went with 100%) of what you'll actually be using to reduce heat and to prevent from blowing up your SSR during an initial surge.

Continued: Just because you can doesn't mean you should: Don't install your temp probe in the bottom of any vessel; it's tempting to just install it in your site glass fitting but to get an accurate reading you want the temp probe to be half way up the vessel / your water level. (I had to setup my HLT to constantly recirculate the water and tie up another pump because I added the fitting to site glass.)

Note: When SSRs die, they often die in the fully open state without much warning -this is pretty dangerous, ESPECIALLY in a RIMS tube...; physical switches (or a contactor which is essentially a remotely operated physical switch) in the circuit are a great safety feature.


Adam

Cheers for the detailed reply Adam. I went with the Auber PIDs & their rtd sensors with xlr fittings. They arrived in two days - very impressed.  temp probes will screw into the T fitting on the taps of my pots. I already use a chugger to recirc my sparge water to get an even temp & also to pasteurize my plate chiller so this will remain the same with the PID in my brewery. . This pump is also used to fly sparge. . Ive two PIDs - one for my HLT & one for my herms. Boil kettle doesnt need one as its on a blichmann burner. St fursey gave me a few lights & switches, got my metal enclosure & Heatsink from same supplier as him also. Will post links if anyone is interested. As seen before this is based on the electric brewery build so will have all the safety switches etc in place. Hopefully it wont take 6 months to get it together...

Quote from: Hop Bomb on August 19, 2014, 06:56:32 PM
Hopefully it wont take 6 months to get it together...

8 months and counting...

Quote from: biertourist on August 18, 2014, 11:51:32 PM
Advice: Do NOT, NOT bother with a PID controller for your boil kettle- a HUGE complication and increase in cost for NOTHING.

No. I have a PID for my BK. Temp probe is direct through the kettle wall. The PID will be set to just below boiling point, when target temp is hit - say 98c, an alarm will sound letting me know it's close to boil. You then set the temp point a degree or two above 100c, set to manual - most people use about 80%, meaning the element fires 80% of the time - this maintains a rolling boiling. This is for a setup with a 5500 watt element. This process ensures I can walk away and do something else and not face a boil over. When the boil is finished, I can set the temp point to pitching temp, recirculate through counterflow chiller and back to the BK - alarm will sound when pitching temp is reached. It's not much more of complication when already adding a few other PIDs, and it most definitely can have a purpose in your brewing process.

Quote from: biertourist on August 18, 2014, 11:51:32 PM
Continued: Oversize your SSR by at least 50% (I went with 100%) of what you'll actually be using to reduce heat and to prevent from blowing up your SSR during an initial surge.

Yep. Oversize your SSRs relative the amps being used by your elements. This means less heat and less stress on the SSR and will lengthen its life span.

Quote from: biertourist on August 18, 2014, 11:51:32 PM
Continued: Just because you can doesn't mean you should: Don't install your temp probe in the bottom of any vessel; it's tempting to just install it in your site glass fitting but to get an accurate reading you want the temp probe to be half way up the vessel / your water level. (I had to setup my HLT to constantly recirculate the water and tie up another pump because I added the fitting to site glass.)

Your temp probes on the HLT and the MLT should be on the output valves if recirculating. See numerous threads on the electric brewery website or others. Those that have placed them anywhere else have difficulty maintaining temps or get different readings between the HLT and the MLT. In fact the PID for the MLT only purpose is to check / correlate the temp of the mash is the same as that of the HERMS. This is particularly relevant for those copying the electric brewery setup.

Quote from: biertourist on August 18, 2014, 11:51:32 PM
Note: When SSRs die, they often die in the fully open state without much warning -this is pretty dangerous, ESPECIALLY in a RIMS tube...; physical switches (or a contactor which is essentially a remotely operated physical switch) in the circuit are a great safety feature.

No. SSR fail in the closed state. This means that the circuit is closed, which allows electricity to run though it. This is why a mechanical contactor and on/off switch is required before the SSR so that you can turn of the electricity to the element. The on/off switch allows electricity to run to the contactor which energizes the coil, placing it in a closed state, meaning electricity can now flow through to the SSR and down to the element, the PID turns the SSR on and off depending on the temperature setting etc. 

Quote from: Hop Bomb on August 19, 2014, 06:56:32 PM
Hopefully it wont take 6 months to get it together...

My electric brewery clone is now at 19 months........

Quote from: Ozbrewer on August 20, 2014, 12:22:18 PM

Quote from: biertourist on August 18, 2014, 11:51:32 PM
Advice: Do NOT, NOT bother with a PID controller for your boil kettle- a HUGE complication and increase in cost for NOTHING.

"
No. I have a PID for my BK. Temp probe is direct through the kettle wall. The PID will be set to just below boiling point, when target temp is hit - say 98c, an alarm will sound letting me know it's close to boil. You then set the temp point a degree or two above 100c, set to manual - most people use about 80%, meaning the element fires 80% of the time - this maintains a rolling boiling. This is for a setup with a 5500 watt element. This process ensures I can walk away and do something else and not face a boil over. When the boil is finished, I can set the temp point to pitching temp, recirculate through counterflow chiller and back to the BK - alarm will sound when pitching temp is reached. It's not much more of complication when already adding a few other PIDs, and it most definitely can have a purpose in your brewing process.
"

Sure but when you have a rolling boil spewing hot break all over everywhere the few seconds it takes to hold the PID buttons and then decrease the %output to 80%; it's also another $60 (USD anyway) to add another PID controller -a PWM dial controller is cheap as chips and you just turn the dial counter-clockwise and the heat output instantly goes down.  Proportional, Integral, and Differentially determining the heat difference between where you currently are and where you need to be is pointless; you're paying for features that you'll never use in a boil kettle and are making it unnecessarily more complicated. 

You just need quick response to turning down how much heat your boil kettle produces; when you think about the actual requirement for a boil kettle a physical dial instantly comes to mind because it's a solution that's "right sized" to the problem. 

You could build a small jet engine and use it to make creme brulee, but you can't say that you're right sizing the solution to the problem if you do so.  Yea, it does have more bling factor...


Adam

Quote from: Ozbrewer on August 20, 2014, 12:22:18 PM

No. I have a PID for my BK. Temp probe is direct through the kettle wall. The PID will be set to just below boiling point, when target temp is hit - say 98c, an alarm will sound letting me know it's close to boil. You then set the temp point a degree or two above 100c, set to manual - most people use about 80%, meaning the element fires 80% of the time - this maintains a rolling boiling. This is for a setup with a 5500 watt element. This process ensures I can walk away and do something else and not face a boil over. When the boil is finished, I can set the temp point to pitching temp, recirculate through counterflow chiller and back to the BK - alarm will sound when pitching temp is reached. It's not much more of complication when already adding a few other PIDs, and it most definitely can have a purpose in your brewing process.

Honestly, objectively look at just how long and complicated your description is (and it is simplified vs. what you actually have to do; you have to hold down buttons every time you switch between auto and manual mode, then hold other buttons to change the % output or temp, remember which buttons to push when, then wait for the timeout value so the PID actually starts doing what you just told it  to do, etc...).  You have a $60 piece of equipment that can do integral and differential calculus in a boil kettle that just needs "more heat" or "less heat".


Same process with a PWM dial controlling an SSR:
Leave dial set on "high" (like an oven knob) until wort boils, then dial it down to reduce the volcanic boiling (it instantly goes down) -if you need more heat dial it up a bit more; if less, down a bit more.

Keep It Simple. (Or waste your life fidgeting with your brewery hardware instead of making beer.)


With PWM:

• You don't have to recalibrate PID controllers so they accurately read heat
• You don't have to worry about temperature probes including cleaning, them breaking, resoldering cords, etc..
• You don't have to worry about which buttons to push when to change temp or switch between modes; or which esoteric setting you need to modify when it refuses to switch between automatic and manual modes (yes, that's a thing; yes, it's annoying)
• You don't have to hold a button for 3 seconds to enable a mode that enables you to drop the temperature while hot break is spewing everywhere making a huge mess of your brewing area
• You don't have to spend 60 quid and precious space in your control panel when a simple 2 quid pwm dial will work

I've bought a lot of "high-end" brewing equipment in the last year and a number of those items made brewing harder, not easier.  IMO, a PID controller, rtd style connector temp probes, tri clamp fittings, a plate chiller, and a shiny flat-bottomed boil kettle are all in that category. -They're "cool", but they introduce more problems than they solve.

I'm now moving to v2.0 of my stainless "dream system" and my upgrades include PWM dial-controlled boil (vs pid), removing triclamps and swapping them out for quick disconnects (camlock style in my case), counter flow chiller, and a keggle-based whirlpool kettle.  I used to think that these were "downgrades", but they're not; they work better and require less effort to use and less maintenance, so they're upgrades.


My 2 bucket brewery in Dublin (Mashtun: insulated bucket with mesh screen attached to a ball valve; Boil+HLT: plastic bucket with 2 Charlie Shiels kettle elements / computer power cords) was the single easiest-to-use brewery I'll probably ever own... I'm afraid it's all downhill from there, no matter how much money I spend and how many tweaks I make. (although I transferred WAY too much trub to my fermenter with that brewery and always had burny fusols because of it.)



Adam

Quote from: Ozbrewer on August 20, 2014, 12:22:18 PM

No. SSR fail in the closed state. This means that the circuit is closed, which allows electricity to run though it. This is why a mechanical contactor and on/off switch is required before the SSR so that you can turn of the electricity to the element. The on/off switch allows electricity to run to the contactor which energizes the coil, placing it in a closed state, meaning electricity can now flow through to the SSR and down to the element, the PID turns the SSR on and off depending on the temperature setting etc. 

SOMETIMES SSRs fail in the closed state.  -When they burn out due to overheating that's true, when they burn out from going from room temperature to being very hot, back to room temperature again and internal solder joints fail, they fail open.  My first SSR straight from Ebay arrived broken in a "fail open" state. (This is why all of the electrical brewery schematics on HomeBrewTalk made by PJ have contactors or physical switches to cut off the current.)


"
Q  What is the normal failure mode of SSRs and why?

A   There are 2 failure modes; failed in the open state and failed in the closed state.  Closed failures are the more common failure mode and this form of failure most often occurs due to overheating of the SSR which leads to an internal melting of components which end up as a closed circuit.  The open failure is most often caused by a separation of solder joints due to extreme temperature changes over the life of the SSR.
"
http://www.hbcontrols.com/ssr-controller-assemblies-technical.asp


Adam

I'm glad this has popped up. I'm just starting to research PIDs. I'd love to build a controller for my HLT and run my 2.75kw element and a pump off it. Any real basic guides banging around?

Quote from: biertourist on August 20, 2014, 11:37:59 PM

Quote from: Ozbrewer on August 20, 2014, 12:22:18 PM

No. SSR fail in the closed state. This means that the circuit is closed, which allows electricity to run though it. This is why a mechanical contactor and on/off switch is required before the SSR so that you can turn of the electricity to the element. The on/off switch allows electricity to run to the contactor which energizes the coil, placing it in a closed state, meaning electricity can now flow through to the SSR and down to the element, the PID turns the SSR on and off depending on the temperature setting etc. 

SOMETIMES SSRs fail in the closed state.  -When they burn out due to overheating that's true, when they burn out from going from room temperature to being very hot, back to room temperature again and internal solder joints fail, they fail open.  My first SSR straight from Ebay arrived broken in a "fail open" state. (This is why all of the electrical brewery schematics on HomeBrewTalk made by PJ have contactors or physical switches to cut off the current.)


"
Q  What is the normal failure mode of SSRs and why?

A   There are 2 failure modes; failed in the open state and failed in the closed state.  Closed failures are the more common failure mode and this form of failure most often occurs due to overheating of the SSR which leads to an internal melting of components which end up as a closed circuit.  The open failure is most often caused by a separation of solder joints due to extreme temperature changes over the life of the SSR.
"
http://www.hbcontrols.com/ssr-controller-assemblies-technical.asp


Adam

Yes - sorry, I meant typically they fail in the closed state - that is the element will now stay on. This is one of the mains reason that you use a mechanical relay / contactor. Also, SSRs will leak current when not in a failed state and you need to ensure there is no power going to the elements when cleaning - again the mechanical relays are important here as well for safety. There is a good description here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=13

Go half way down to the How it works section for a good description.

Quote from: biertourist on August 18, 2014, 11:51:32 PM

Advice: Do NOT, NOT bother with a PID controller for your boil kettle- a HUGE complication and increase in cost for NOTHING. You want dial-based PWM control for the boil kettle; don't use a rheostat or you'll just overheat things and burn them out.

Thanks for your response Adam. However, it still doesn't change that a PID controller for you boil kettle does add functionality and can have a purpose.

- Set an alarm and temp target prior to boil to ensure that no boil overs happen. With your solution you have to watch it constantly, or be back and forth the whole time. I reckon that wastes more time than pressing a few buttons.
- Set an alarm and temp for wort cooling when re-circulation. Your PWM solution can't do that.

Quote from: biertourist on August 20, 2014, 11:12:14 PM

Honestly, objectively look at just how long and complicated your description is (and it is simplified vs. what you actually have to do; you have to hold down buttons every time you switch between auto and manual mode, then hold other buttons to change the % output or temp, remember which buttons to push when, then wait for the timeout value so the PID actually starts doing what you just told it  to do, etc...).  You have a $60 piece of equipment that can do integral and differential calculus in a boil kettle that just needs "more heat" or "less heat".

Is a PWM more simple in controlling heat to the element and the boil process - Yes. However, the PID doesn't add a massive amount of complexity. Most settings once programmed remain in place the next time the system is used, such as the 80% Manual boil rate. It's simple click of the A/M button on the pid. Not much time or effort to set the temps.

Do I need just more heat or less heat - in essence that is correct. But I also want visibility of what is going on, especially when coming up to the boil and when recirculating for cooling purposes. The PWM won't do that for you.

Quote from: biertourist on August 20, 2014, 11:12:14 PM

Or waste your life fidgeting with your brewery hardware instead of making beer.

Actually, one of the reasons I went with the electric brewery clone is because it allows good interaction with the brewing process. I guess I could have gone down the Arduino path and automated fully, but it's not what I want. Realistically, it's not that much fidgeting with the hardware - a few buttons and switch - better control, better consistency, better repeat-ability. IMHO and quite a few others using such a system it seems.

Quote from: biertourist on August 20, 2014, 11:12:14 PM
With PWM:

• You don't have to recalibrate PID controllers so they accurately read heat
• You don't have to worry about temperature probes including cleaning, them breaking, resoldering cords, etc..
• You don't have to worry about which buttons to push when to change temp or switch between modes; or which esoteric setting you need to modify when it refuses to switch between automatic and manual modes (yes, that's a thing; yes, it's annoying)
• You don't have to hold a button for 3 seconds to enable a mode that enables you to drop the temperature while hot break is spewing everywhere making a huge mess of your brewing area
• You don't have to spend 60 quid and precious space in your control panel when a simple 2 quid pwm dial will work

The whole point of the PID on the BK will help better prevent a boil over. As to the other points - you don't recalibrate PIDs every time you brew, most do it the once and check on occasion. Switching between manual and auto is by pressing a button on the front of the PID, no more difficult in turning a dial really. You don't have to hold a button for 3 seconds, just press the down button and it will drop the temp and stop the boil, maybe marginally slower than turning a dial - on my system i have safety reset switch for the pids that will kill the boil straight away, or I simple turn the element switch to off and leave the pid in run mode - which is just as quick if not quicker than turning a dial. As for space on the panel - well you size the panel for what you want to do and what you want on it - so really not an issue.

Quote from: biertourist on August 20, 2014, 11:12:14 PM

I've bought a lot of "high-end" brewing equipment in the last year and a number of those items made brewing harder, not easier.  IMO, a PID controller, rtd style connector temp probes, tri clamp fittings, a plate chiller, and a shiny flat-bottomed boil kettle are all in that category. -They're "cool", but they introduce more problems than they solve.

Like what problems do they introduce? Each to their own on these I think. PIDs and RTD connectors work well. TriClamp fittings and plate chillers versus other option have been debated ad nausea on all the brewing forums and people will choose what they want for their own reasons - myself, I have QD like in the EB site and a counterflow chiller rather than a plate chiller.

However, overall if they system is well designed and put together you will be able to have better control over the brewing process. 

Quote from: biertourist on August 20, 2014, 11:12:14 PM
I'm now moving to v2.0 of my stainless "dream system" and my upgrades include PWM dial-controlled boil (vs pid), removing triclamps and swapping them out for quick disconnects (camlock style in my case), counter flow chiller, and a keggle-based whirlpool kettle.  I used to think that these were "downgrades", but they're not; they work better and require less effort to use and less maintenance, so they're upgrades.

Excellent - do what makes you happy and will work for you. Sounds like some good changes there for you.

Quote from: biertourist on August 20, 2014, 11:12:14 PM
My 2 bucket brewery in Dublin (Mashtun: insulated bucket with mesh screen attached to a ball valve; Boil+HLT: plastic bucket with 2 Charlie Shiels kettle elements / computer power cords) was the single easiest-to-use brewery I'll probably ever own... I'm afraid it's all downhill from there, no matter how much money I spend and how many tweaks I make. (although I transferred WAY too much trub to my fermenter with that brewery and always had burny fusols because of it.)

Yep, my old system was easy to use. But it was also very painful in being consistent. The EB clone I'm building will solve all the problems I have had brewing and I personally don't see any downside to it - maybe more things to clean and store - but a minor inconvenience if even.