Is it just me or are a lot of Irish breweries making shit low flavored beer?? it seems every time i try a new pale, red, ipa or amber ale from an Irish brewery its a complete disappointment, and the worse part of it is people with a bit of sense like certain bloggers are saying how great these beers are it strikes me as ars licking to be honest. you can say they're unoffensive gateway beers but thats a cop out, beers like punk ipa and dead pony club are gateway beers, they've gotten all my mates into craft beer and they're packed with flavour and thats what people want. some breweries are doing it right tho like 8 degrees, new breweries need to take a leaf out of their book, i had a gneas last night and that was great too and a stag ban which was crap
rant over
You're not allowed say things like that :o
I completely agree
feck it its done now if i was making crap beer (which i probably am :P) id like someone to tell me
well - there's a lot of new breweries on the scene - some better than others.
but .. thats a pretty sweeping statement you made - doesn't it depend a bit on how you define flavour?? And there's a lot of different folks with different preferences.
Me, I'm into my stouts, the drier the better - not a massive fan of over-hopped beers :o :o
Surely the main thing is that you're able to find Irish beers that suit your preferences, and I'm able to find beers that suit mine, and that there's an increasing amount of choice to suit a more diverse range of preferences (that aren't necessarily the same as yours)?
.... and of course those that don't suit anybody's preferences will eventually go quietly into the night.
;)
Crap can be bland, or technically flawed. Not necessarily the same thing. I'd say until pretty recently all Irish craft beer was fairly middle of the road. I mean I can only think of one (intentional) Irish sour beer, and it was a limited edition and not even brewed in Ireland.
Quote from: mr hoppy on September 21, 2014, 09:46:57 PM
I mean I can only think of one (intentional) Irish sour beer, and it was a limited edition and not even brewed in Ireland.
Was there not two at the RDS? - White Gypsy and O'Hara's. Tried, and enjoyed the White Gypsy one .. but I haven't tried a sour before so had nothing to refer to.
Actually one of the things I liked about this year's festival was the increasing diversity ... as you say, a lot of breweries have been middle of the road and perhaps played it a little too safe in relation to flavour. But I think that reflects the tastes of the market, and as the punters are getting more adventurous, so too are the brewers (well some of them anyhow).
I wasn't at the RDS. Tell me more.
The White Gypsy sour was called Scarlet ... not having had a sour before I was worried that I might find it difficult to adjust the ol' taste buds, but I thought it nice (maybe it lacked flavour :P) .. the wife took one wiff of the glass and refused to even touch a drop - que an animated discussion on why anyone would make "gone-off" beer on purpose, or even worse buy gone-off beer on purpose :P :P
Link to it on ratebeer.com - http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/white-gypsy-scarlet/286284/ (http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/white-gypsy-scarlet/286284/)
but yeah, I thought there was a bit more variety style-wise this year (although a few uninspiring offerings too)
We'll in relation to a pale ale that should be a hoppy beer but a lot of the time the beer just isn't hoppy which would make it a poor attempt at the style. That's wat I'm getting at, it just frustrates me wen I buy a pale ale or ipa and i want a good hop flavour and I'm left dissapointed.
It's great to see a diversity of beers tho I had both sours at the RDS and they were very different to belgian styles iv had but were decent
That white gypsy sour is on draught in the norseman at the mo I believe
Commercial breweries aren't bound by the style guidelines and some of them are probably more influenced by English than American antecedents. Timothy Taylor's Landlord says Pale Ale on the label. Deuchars IPA or Greene King aren't exactly American style hop bombs either.
It is very frustrating to buy a beer in the expectation of a heavy dose of New World late hopping and find that's not what's going on at all.
Thats a fair point in reation to the level of hops in IPAs and pale ale on the Irish market. While not a fan of big hoppy beers, I do agree that a lot of Irish efforts can be a bit light on the hops. I suppose the gist of my point is that there's more to flavour than just hops ... sours being an example, good stout being another.
Quote from: delzep on September 21, 2014, 10:30:50 PM
That white gypsy sour is on draught in the norseman at the mo I believe
I was there Friday and was told they had no sour beer. I did have a bottle of Fulcrum wheat beer there which says nothing about being sour but is. Delicious. Think I ended up having about 4. Lets hope they meant it :-) or more importantly continue it..
Quote from: Dube on September 21, 2014, 11:46:55 PM
The WG sour was diluted to the point of being barely sour, nice enough as it was.
If you want sour in Ireland, Liffey Brewers are leading the way :)
He meant beer flavour, not personalities :P
Right. Second attempt at replying to this (brilliant thread, btw). Fecking windows decided it needed to clean its arse in the middle of my previous attempt.
I agree with what Baphomite is saying, inasmuch as more bars and restaurants are offering more in the way of 'locally' brewed beers but no matter how good or bad they are they get all slapped with the 'Craft' label and suddenly you're talking a fiver a pint.
It's a case of be careful what you wish for. We've craved diversity from the macro breweries for years and now we're getting it we're getting stuck in the neck for it too while the Calrsberg/Carling/Tennents drinkers are looking on and feeling justified at paying a quid less for their muck.
I've a mate originally from Middlesborough, says his dad is still paying less than £2 a pint back home for local ales. Here, you might as well get it served in a woven basket and get a gift jumper for the amount you're paying.
Treated myself to a couple in my local last week in the Errigle in Belfast. First up, Thornbridge Jaipur - £4.65 - beautiful, great beer, great brewery. Very happy seeing their stuff over here, finally. But (in Tyrone spake) wile dear. Second up, Belfast BPA on pump. £3.90 infected. Rotten. Well past sell-by. Amost tasted the dust. Customer too farty to complain.
Point being. We're finally getting what we want in the pubs, but the cost/quality helps us reafirm ourselves as homebrewers.
-Barry
P.s. on a side note, where the f**k has this Clonmel lager started appearing from? Is this another of these Heverlee-esque cons?
Quote from: Bazza on September 22, 2014, 12:38:41 AM
P.s. on a side note, where the f**k has this Clonmel lager started appearing from? Is this another of these Heverlee-esque cons?
brewed by C&C Group (i.e. Bulmers/Magners) ...
That's spot on Baz. The price to quality ratio on most Irish beer is way off. Why are my local beers more expensive and pack less punch than American imports.i love a hoppy beer and I'm fed up of getting stale American IPAs but it's still better than anything I can get locally and the Irish beer has the cheek to be more expensive.
Since we've gotten more variety it seems all the breweries have decided Irish craft beer should be really expensive. When there were just a few it was a lot cheaper. Now they see a market it feels like they're gouging us.
Quote from: Dr. D on September 22, 2014, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: Bazza on September 22, 2014, 12:38:41 AM
P.s. on a side note, where the f**k has this Clonmel lager started appearing from? Is this another of these Heverlee-esque cons?
brewed by C&C Group (i.e. Bulmers/Magners) ...
Didn't even bother googling that one. Thanks :)
Had to laugh (well, cry, given the result), was in one of those kind of bars yesterday evening watching that red pile of shite get pummelled by Jaba the Hut's Cockneys, and my mates were all over this Heverlee, like it was a Ferrero roche in a glass. Didn't have the desire or energy to explain to them how much was wrong. I stood and supped my half decent Guinness and wondered why Lucas was still on our books.
-Barry
Quote from: Qs on September 22, 2014, 12:50:03 AM
Since we've gotten more variety it seems all the breweries have decided Irish craft beer should be really expensive. When there were just a few it was a lot cheaper. Now they see a market it feels like they're gouging us.
Exactly, Qs. Seems we're not in the minority of feeling shafted by the very folk we think we're helping.
-Barry
Quote from: Dube on September 22, 2014, 09:28:17 AM
Quote from: Qs on September 22, 2014, 12:50:03 AM
Since we've gotten more variety it seems all the breweries have decided Irish craft beer should be really expensive. When there were just a few it was a lot cheaper. Now they see a market it feels like they're gouging us.
In a lot of cases where it used to be cheap and is now expensive it's because the publican has upped their margin "because it's craft and people will pay more", or in some cases the brewery has started using a distributor now who is also taking a cut.
I generally find it ok on tap, at least in my local. Its the off licences where the price difference is really galling to me.
It could be the distributor alright, but thats a business issue the Irish brewers need to sort out. If you are letting a middleman do your distribution its less work for you so it should be coming out of your own end.
And I don't want to be complaining about Irish beer, there are some excellent Irish breweries but I wonder if some of the new breweries will last. I think we all want the industry to thrive here. I suppose its inevitable in any market that you'll have the poor and mediocre in with the great and good. I do agree with the OP on the bloggers, etc There seems to be too little genuine criticism of the breweries.
Could it be that bloggers are afraid of any free samples that they might get drying up if they are seen to be critical I wonder...
You might have it correct Delzep. When the bloggers had there day with Diageo none of them asked the hard questions. As they were told of how the beers have such great ingredients as per listed on the back of the bottles,the question ,"so what went wrong"was not asked. >:(. When they decide to launch a beer like SPA and they say we have Amarillo hops, question "where are they or did ye forget to put them in" >:( >:(. Another question was "who makes the decision on what actual beer recipe is used, head brewer or the bean counter who only drinks diluted popsicles".
Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 22, 2014, 12:47:19 PM
You might have it correct Delzep. When the bloggers had there day with Diageo none of them asked the hard questions. As they were told of how the beers have such great ingredients as per listed on the back of the bottles,the question ,"so what went wrong"was not asked. >:(. When they decide to launch a beer like SPA and they say we have Amarillo hops, question "where are they or did ye forget to put them in" >:( >:(. Another question was "who makes the decision on what actual beer recipe is used, head brewer or the bean counter who only drinks diluted popsicles".
"the bean counter who only drinks diluted popsicles"
I think that answers all your questions.
I quite enjoy the Beer Nut's blog, he's not afraid to be negative about Irish beers either.
Would you eat at a restaurant that the chef himself would not eat at. Would you buy beer from a brewery that the brewers themselves and their board would not drink.
Quote from: DEMPSEY on September 22, 2014, 12:53:48 PM
Would you eat at a restaurant that the chef himself would not eat at. Would you buy beer from a brewery that the brewers themselves and their board would not drink.
I don't. :P
I was chatting to the original inventor of Smithwick's Pale Ale and I questioned why he was drinking a Metalman but then makes such a poor pale ale himself. He dejectedly said that originally he had won the Diageo internal "home brew" comp with a really punchy Amarillo pale ale but that it came back completely different after the suits had given it the once over. In saying that, a lot of the older Diageo brewers are seriously deluded about how good their beers are.
Quote from: Bazza on September 22, 2014, 12:38:41 AM
Point being. We're finally getting what we want in the pubs, but the cost/quality helps us reafirm ourselves as homebrewers.
Amen to that.
Ended up buying Budvar or Lidl beer as often as not on holidays (in west Cork) because of the ridiculous price of Irish stuff.
In fairness to Diageo I wouldn't put Amarillo in a mass market brew either. One source of supply and the memory of the hop shortage would put me off.
Quote from: irish_goat on September 22, 2014, 12:58:01 PM
I was chatting to the original inventor of Smithwick's Pale Ale and I questioned why he was drinking a Metalman but then makes such a poor pale ale himself. He dejectedly said that originally he had won the Diageo internal "home brew" comp with a really punchy Amarillo pale ale but that it came back completely different after the suits had given it the once over. In saying that, a lot of the older Diageo brewers are seriously deluded about how good their beers are.
Jesus, that's staggering. "We love your beer but we're going to completely change the recipe." That guy needs to find a new job.
While I do think some of the newer craft breweries are occasionally producing beers that don't live up to the gushing commentary on social media, a bigger issue is the price craft beer is still selling at.
Digressing slightly, I recently paid the Duke in Dublin 6.80 for a bottle of stale O'Hara's Pale Ale! Selection is piss-poor there, it was either pay that or drink one of the bland macros.
Contrast that with the perfectly conditioned cask London Pride I was drinking in the Three Tun Tavern at the weekend. On special at €1.99 a pint. I can't wait to see what the pub trade will look like in Ireland when Wetherspoons hit full stride.
Quote from: Bubbles on September 22, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
Contrast that with the perfectly conditioned cask London Pride I was drinking in the Three Tun Tavern at the weekend. On special at €1.99 a pint. I can't wait to see what the pub trade will look like in Ireland when Wetherspoons hit full stride.
Bet it was in good nick, too.
Wetherspoons is interesting alright. Those are great prices for decent quality brews.
I do find the prices in the Galway Bay pubs a little hard to stomach. I'm happy I'm able to buy an interesting brew, but knowing the cost of making the product, it does feel like they're trying to fleece me.
Quote from: Tom on September 22, 2014, 02:07:39 PM
Quote from: Bubbles on September 22, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
Contrast that with the perfectly conditioned cask London Pride I was drinking in the Three Tun Tavern at the weekend. On special at €1.99 a pint. I can't wait to see what the pub trade will look like in Ireland when Wetherspoons hit full stride.
Bet it was in good nick, too.
It was perfect! Carbonation, temperature, flavour.
Quote from: molc on September 22, 2014, 02:26:19 PM
Wetherspoons is interesting alright. Those are great prices for decent quality brews.
I do find the prices in the Galway Bay pubs a little hard to stomach. I'm happy I'm able to buy an interesting brew, but knowing the cost of making the product, it does feel like they're trying to fleece me.
The prices for their own beers are not too bad. €4 for Table. I think the Full Sail is about €5-€5.50. Not bad for arguably the freshest and best tasting IPAs produced in Ireland.
(For me, Galway Bay and Eight Degrees are two breweries that are not only making great beer but are doing a really consistent product. Always some nice experimental beers popping up regularly from them too.)
However, I do object to paying €6.80 for a pint of Punk IPA. But that's BrewDog's fault by all accounts, not the Galway Bay group.
Agreed. No issue with those breweries at all. Full Sail feels like a coming of age for Irish IPA in fact. Or is it Foam and Fury. Always get those two confused.
Quote from: Bubbles on September 22, 2014, 02:35:59 PM
(For me, Galway Bay and Eight Degrees are two breweries that are not only making great beer but are doing a really consistent product. Always some nice experimental beers popping up regularly from them too.)
Quote from: Bubbles on September 22, 2014, 02:35:59 PMHowever, I do object to paying €6.80 for a pint of Punk IPA. But that's BrewDog's fault by all accounts, not the Galway Bay group.
So I keep hearing yet its sub €5.50 in my local.
I agree on Galway Bay and 8 Degrees. Amber Ella was a fantastic beer, thats the fresh hoppy taste I want. You can add Metalman and Blacks to the list too.
Don't forget Rascals. I love trying whatever they have brought out. It's always unusual and taste worthy :D
Quote from: Qs on September 22, 2014, 02:51:47 PM
Quote from: Bubbles on September 22, 2014, 02:35:59 PMHowever, I do object to paying €6.80 for a pint of Punk IPA. But that's BrewDog's fault by all accounts, not the Galway Bay group.
So I keep hearing yet its sub €5.50 in my local.
I agree on Galway Bay and 8 Degrees. Amber Ella was a fantastic beer, thats the fresh hoppy taste I want. You can add Metalman and Blacks to the list too.
Where is that local?
Thats a great price for it.
Whitehag have shown you don't need to launch with the trinity of beers, and there are a number of breweries who are playing it safe in my opinion. The double edge sword for brewers from what i can see is getting the time to sell/distribute and brew the beers, and inevitably you may see a distributor coming in,and they've their cut to get too. Interesting times ahead. Hopefully some more interesting beers too!
Quote from: molc on September 22, 2014, 02:39:45 PM
Agreed. No issue with those breweries at all. Full Sail feels like a coming of age for Irish IPA in fact. Or is it Foam and Fury. Always get those two confused.
Full Sail is the IPA. F&F is the Double/Imperial IPA, same price I think, but a smaller glass. I tend to stay away from it because of the potent ABV, but I had a glass recently and blimey... it's outstanding. Deserves all of the plaudits it gets.
Quote from: Qs on September 22, 2014, 02:51:47 PM
Quote from: Bubbles on September 22, 2014, 02:35:59 PMHowever, I do object to paying €6.80 for a pint of Punk IPA. But that's BrewDog's fault by all accounts, not the Galway Bay group.
So I keep hearing yet its sub €5.50 in my local.
I agree on Galway Bay and 8 Degrees. Amber Ella was a fantastic beer, thats the fresh hoppy taste I want. You can add Metalman and Blacks to the list too.
A loss leader? :) Where's your local?
I love the Simcoe Rye that Eight Degrees have out at the moment. Fantastic.
Quote from: Bubbles on September 22, 2014, 04:22:06 PM
Quote from: molc on September 22, 2014, 02:39:45 PM
Agreed. No issue with those breweries at all. Full Sail feels like a coming of age for Irish IPA in fact. Or is it Foam and Fury. Always get those two confused.
Full Sail is the IPA. F&F is the Double/Imperial IPA, same price I think, but a smaller glass. I tend to stay away from it because of the potent ABV, but I had a glass recently and blimey... it's outstanding. Deserves all of the plaudits it gets.
Yeah it's F & F I usually get. Potent, but I prefer to have less beer and more flavour. I'm only wee though, so too many of them and I'm on my ass :D
Going to give the Simcoe a try soon. Picked up a bottle at the weekend to see what it's like.
completely agree 8 degrees amber ella is probably my favorite Irish beer, and galway bay do some fantastic beers that blue monday was great, these breweries are a completely different class. i dont understand how you can be so passionate about beer and decide to open a brewery and then make poor beer tho, and it doesn help when people blow smoke up their arse, if that keeps happening its like saying your settling for a poor product which is wrong, we as consumers should demand the best and let brewers know what we want and what we think
My locals Phil Healys in Wicklow Town. Upstairs had a craft bar and the Punk was always a decent price. Now it could have gone up I haven't been in there in nearly 3 months after having the stupid notion to start a family. Don't think it was a loss leader either, they just tried not to mark the beer up so much it was prohibitively expensive.
Also I think a lot of new Irish brewers have trouble on their gear. I've noticed improved quality on quite a few Irish beers that have been around for a few years now and have had the chance to put some money back into upgrading their equipment.
And I'm excited to see how Blacks and Metalmans beers do in cans.
Quote from: Qs on September 22, 2014, 08:36:41 PMAlso I think a lot of new Irish brewers have trouble on their gear. I've noticed improved quality on quite a few Irish beers that have been around for a few years now and have had the chance to put some money back into upgrading their equipment.
That shouldn't be an excuse though; plenty of brewers on here making great beer with basic equipment.
Why are they releasing batches which are obviously under par to market? Do they think the punter won't notice? Do they not notice themselves? Or is money so tight they can't afford to lose a batch?
Quote from: irish_goat on September 22, 2014, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Qs on September 22, 2014, 08:36:41 PMAlso I think a lot of new Irish brewers have trouble on their gear. I've noticed improved quality on quite a few Irish beers that have been around for a few years now and have had the chance to put some money back into upgrading their equipment.
That shouldn't be an excuse though; plenty of brewers on here making great beer with basic equipment.
I've heard commercial brewers say sanitation is a much bigger issue if you are brewing on a commercial system twice a day every day than if you're home brewing less frequently.
Quote from: Qs on September 22, 2014, 08:36:41 PM
And I'm excited to see how Blacks and Metalmans beers do in cans.
cant wait for the cans blacks pale ale is brilliant another favourit.
Somebody say "shit irish breweries" ? Myself dunkel mrs dunkel kellie and reuben the beoir chairman sat in a pub sat night and drank guinness bulmers and smithwicks..... a craft brewery was across the street selling 4 beers brewed onsite. We left for a number of reasons not least there existed no craft beer passion in the facility despite a state of the art top notch brewhouse and physical surroundings were very nice. For me craft beer is all about passion for beer, brewing and socialising
Quote from: brenmurph on September 22, 2014, 09:48:04 PM
Somebody say "shit irish breweries" ? Myself dunkel mrs dunkel kellie and reuben the beoir chairman sat in a pub sat night and drank guinness bulmers and smithwicks..... a craft brewery was across the street selling 4 beers brewed onsite. We left for a number of reasons not least there existed no craft beer passion in the facility despite a state of the art top notch brewhouse and physical surroundings were very nice. For me craft beer is all about passion for beer, brewing and socialising
Ha I seen a tweet about that, wat a sad situation. Probably a fair few lads out there looking to make a quick buck and lacking the passion, they won't last thankfully but gives craft beer a bad name sadly
Quote from: irish_goat on September 22, 2014, 08:48:16 PM
Quote from: Qs on September 22, 2014, 08:36:41 PMAlso I think a lot of new Irish brewers have trouble on their gear. I've noticed improved quality on quite a few Irish beers that have been around for a few years now and have had the chance to put some money back into upgrading their equipment.
That shouldn't be an excuse though; plenty of brewers on here making great beer with basic equipment.
I know but I get the feeling everyone would struggle with a move to commercial brewing. A lot of new factors to worry about. And I don't really see it as good excuse anyway, at the end of the day the beer is off and I'm not gonna buy it.
Quote from: phoenix on September 22, 2014, 09:20:14 PM
Why are they releasing batches which are obviously under par to market? Do they think the punter won't notice? Do they not notice themselves? Or is money so tight they can't afford to lose a batch?
They definitely shouldn't be. Every batch could be the first time someone is tasting your beer. If its off dump it.
I think there are some fantastic Irish beers on the market. Blacks, Kinnegar and Eight Degrees are all making some great hoppy bears. It is as an exciting time for craft beer in Ireland and I am more than happy to pay a premium for these premium beers.
What I don't understand is that all craft beers cost between 3 – 4 Euros per 500ml bottle and between 5.50 and 6.00 a pint in the pub. On the other hand, a pint of Carlsberg/Henieken/etc. is usually around 5.00 in the pub, but you can often get 6 for 10 in the shop and never pay more than 2.00 for a tin. Why the difference?
Economies of scale, lower bulk quantities from malt right through to print run on labels , h and diageo id imagine use hop extract for bittering and can demand much better prices on hops and can sub quite easily less , macro less labour intensive production process , plus the publican can get away with slapping 50- 65% markup on what the brewery gets , plus below cost selling by established macros
I'd defo think the publican can kill off the sector by slapping the "craft tax" on a beer. I have seen a pretty well known off licence in Dublin slapping 50c on a bottle of beer that was for sale down the country, for obviously 50c less - then even with a possibly a decent margin on it - I think due to the size of the industry now warrants some players stating their rrp per bottle, if its evident they are creaming above this(the vendor) , threaten to remove it and blacklist the vendor, people want craft beer and see how it can be matched with grub or whatever as oppose to the beerswilling culture we have among some demographic
well done me (invisible path on back) i have singlehandedly managed to kill a thread ! sorry i have modified my above rantings a bit - in my defence i was just coming out of recovery after surgery!
Quote from: barkar on September 23, 2014, 03:17:54 PMI have seen a pretty well known off licence in Dublin slapping 50c on a bottle of beer that was for sale down the country, for obviously 50c less - then even with a possibly a decent margin on it - I think due to the size of the industry now warrants some players stating their rrp per bottle, if its evident they are creaming above this(the vendor) , threaten to remove it and blacklist the vendor, people want craft beer and see how it can be matched with grub or whatever as oppose to the beerswilling culture we have among some demographic
A certain off license near Easons in Galway has been selling bottles of Galway Bay OFAF for 7.15e a bottle since it came out. Its 5.90e everywhere else. They've been approached by the brewer about it & the price remains the same. Same price for the same beer in an offie in Ranelagh too when others have it at the 5.90e mark & even cheaper if you buy a case.
Was it this article?
http://www.drinksindustryireland.ie/559-pubs-selling-craft-beer-how-to-join-them/
Quote from: Dube on September 23, 2014, 09:50:21 PM
@barkar, did I see your name on public tenders recently? ;)
Barkar ? , no, that name didn't appear on e tenders :)
- look leader money is a fierce fiery red carrot, hopefully the resultant stick (if fortunate enough) doesn't burn our fingers... ;D :( - we are at very early days of planning and scoping this out - some of the points i highlight below need significant consideration for us before the contents of any bag of malt is hurled into any tun !
My thoughts ....
Dunno about the "pricing up" strategy mentioned - I would question what machinations are behind those Industry mags and to what ends, that advice profits certain market holders - Inb£$v, Hineo and genius for example
there is a point where saturation maybe reached within the current market (or any industry for that matter) the price charged is a significant factor (as per the initial post - this is even evident though our own membership never mind the prospective future craft beer afficionados who decide between a 6 pack of whatever as compared to 4 artisan produced beers in any local offie every friday night ! ),
is ("craft") at this point and then ultimately self erosion where it cant grow due to obstacles that are there - misinformation of publicans and vendors being one - that can be effected by the breweries - through those Journals , excise rebate lag time being another - which ultimately starves starts ups of needed cash to market and grow - lobbying the revenue/dept of finance for a change in this policy is a different animal altogether! ?
is it at a point that there is a significant body of persons within it that they don't have to accept what the publican sets as a price - breweries maybe - through collaboration on Beerireland? - maybe not quite at that point yet - consumers definitely can - by walking away with their feet!- in some ways I suppose that's how this band of (homebrew) brothers and sisters (?) have grown!
Will it (craft) emerge beyond where it is now without provoking a response from macros ?, there is no reason to suggest that they are not doing this already, some, embracing it by broadening their product range, others, less positively (again i have seen evidence locally where some macros have reacted to the down turn over the years quit pettily to reduced order quantities from Publicans by charging a fee for every non reorder per their previous levels)
I think craft is a label that is too easily slapped on any beer that is not InbTv & Genius ie erdinger and hoegaarden is labelled craft out here because it is new (ish) - these are new macro import entrants and not craft
That article mentioned is right though, publicans and their employees need to embrace this and be informed of the products on offer within their establishment - the example i mentioned above of the additional 50c on a bottle - i was talking to the 2 boys on the counter , majority of their shelves stock craft beer - they suggested there was a huge market for craft beer ie they couldn't keep the shelves stocked - then one of them pipped up "what does Craft beer actually mean" i mean really .... that is just lazy - both points above can be achieved by education and knowledge
True craft is a buzzword at the moment and is flying high - there are a lot of publicans and distributors regionally riding on the coat tails of this without fully embracing it ... dont get me wrong - there are also a good portion who are leading by example and really pushing it which is also highly commendable particularly in the major towns - we are all agreed (i think) slapping 50c on a bottle isn't - that's an insurance policy in case it doesn't sell all the case or box !
Price shouldn't be the main market variable but there is a point at which we all know despite how its differrentiated or marketed people will walk away and choose an alternative - particularly if the quality is not as was expected or suggested per the labeling this is something the breweries definitely need to address - there are some exceptions (malt age whisky for example where price is nt a determinant - but quality is expected) - I don't believe standard ale or lager offerings is one of them where differentiation is significant (different subset of styles maybe) ....maybe if the market cant grow - differentiation then becomes a significant factor but then that equally partners self erosion and possible demise of breweries in the sector
Maybe i am talking waffle ..... I could very well be whistling in the dark on this one (in part due to the time of these post! its late :())
Quote from: Dube on September 24, 2014, 09:49:08 AM
@mr h, no not that one, but interesting read all the same.
@barkar, best of luck with the application. I thought all the Leader money had run out nationwide. Kildare LP had €1.8m taken off them because they weren't giving it out quick enough, resulting in no breweries at all getting funding. They say none applied, but no point in applying for money that's not there.
Thanks Dube early days as is said , we will keep ye posted on how we go and any support from people on this forum would be gladly received and welcomed..... :)
Not sure on Kildare position 1.8M left ? maybe some projects underspent against the contract awarded and the deficit goes back centrally to be put into the overall pot - Leader is definitely being launched again late 2015 don't know who will be appraising and dishing out money possibly the Local Authorities or CEDBs if the local Development/partnerships companies are no longer dealing with it.
This article pretty much sums up the way I feel about some macro produced beers (Guinness FES comes to mind)
Quote
Why support a multinational? Good question. Back when I lived in Britain in the 1970's and 1980's, I had no problem drinking beers from the Big Six. If they were good. To encourage them to still make them. If I'd boycotted the big brewers I'd have deprived myself of some wonderful beers. There's a Mild from Leeds that comes to mind. What was the name of that brewery? What sane person would have deprived themselves of a well-kept pint of Draught Bass?
I keep drinking it because I like it and want them to keep brewing it.
But it pisses me off, too. Amstel Bock is proof that Heineken can brew a pretty good beer for a great price. When they can be arsed. Why don't they do it more often?
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ie/2014/09/bokbier-season.html
this is an interesting post i seen on twitter by black donkey especially since we were just discussing it this week, they posted this photo with the caption "its where beer that doesnt meet our standards go" so at least some irish breweries have standards and care
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Byfp_ixCcAAfVvw.jpg)
You beat me to posting that :)
Had a pint of White Hag White IPA over the weekend at Beerhouse... I have to say it
was the best Irish pint I've ever had, and is head and shoulders above almost anything else I've had this year... for once I didn't feel bitter about paying 6.20 for a pint! Other Irish breweries could learn a thing or two..
they are, was out in their premises , some setup 20bbl, their fleadh ale was very nice
Quote from: Bubbles on September 22, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
Contrast that with the perfectly conditioned cask London Pride I was drinking in the Three Tun Tavern at the weekend. On special at €1.99 a pint. I can't wait to see what the pub trade will look like in Ireland when Wetherspoons hit full stride.
Jumping in late on this, but I had a look at the Three Tuns beer list and was very impressed. I live in London, and its beer selection was up there with the bigger spoons pubs.
One of the problems with the craft beer scene in Ireland is that all the micros need to distribute far and wide. In the UK, a real ale microbrewery considers the 10 mile radius from the brewery, its main custom. Its beer will be in most pubs in that radius, so its work is primarily cask delivery. London micros will ship keykegs around in black cabs and zipvans.
Irish micros have to bottle nearly everything. And bottles are a really expensive delivery option. Bottles will hang around on shelves longer, unlike kegs and casks. It doesn't help that the crafty bars are padding out the margins too. We have this in london too, with the craft bars padding the prices out the yard, but you also have pubs that deal direct with brewers. For instance, Kernel Pale Ale can be £6.50 in one craft chain, or £5 even in another (guess where I drink). And if you dont want to pay craft prices, Real Ale will rarely get over £4 a pint in london.
One factor really holding Irish Micros back, is the fact that they cannot sell direct on the premises in most cases (they have to apply for a license like anyone else). I the UK a license usually goes for £25. So all micros have one, so that they can sell their beer at brewery direct prices to whoever drives over to the brewery. It has encouraged some innovation in the dispense method (growlers etc.).
In London, many microbreweries function like nightclubs at the weekends (DJs etc.) and it really helps the brewery establish itself. Brew By Numbers IPA: £3 at the brewery. Expect it to go to £3/£3.50 a half in most of the pubs where it is sold.
If Irish micros could go this way, it could really help them. it is one thing to say that this beer was made in my home town, it is another to say that this beer was made *over there*.
Quote from: ferg on September 29, 2014, 12:13:52 PM
Had a pint of White Hag White IPA over the weekend at Beerhouse... I have to say it
was the best Irish pint I've ever had, and is head and shoulders above almost anything else I've had this year... for once I didn't feel bitter about paying 6.20 for a pint! Other Irish breweries could learn a thing or two..
Sure: be ready to export from the start and get a head brewer from one of the top breweries in the US. Easier said than done.
Quote from: TheSumOfAllBeers on October 01, 2014, 01:29:49 PM
One factor really holding Irish Micros back, is the fact that they cannot sell direct on the premises in most cases (they have to apply for a license like anyone else). I the UK a license usually goes for £25. So all micros have one, so that they can sell their beer at brewery direct prices to whoever drives over to the brewery. It has encouraged some innovation in the dispense method (growlers etc.).
The VFI will fight that tooth and nail, the way I hear it.
Quote from: ferg on September 29, 2014, 12:13:52 PM
Had a pint of White Hag White IPA over the weekend at Beerhouse... I have to say it
was the best Irish pint I've ever had, and is head and shoulders above almost anything else I've had this year... for once I didn't feel bitter about paying 6.20 for a pint! Other Irish breweries could learn a thing or two..
Everything I sampled at the RDS was brilliant--without a doubt the best brewery in Ireland. I had their imperial stout and red IPA at Black Sheep at the weekend and they were every bit as good as I remembered. Even their heather ale is flavourful, which must be a first.
Quote from: barkar on September 23, 2014, 03:17:54 PM
Economies of scale, lower bulk quantities from malt right through to print run on labels , h and diageo id imagine use hop extract for bittering and can demand much better prices on hops and can sub quite easily less , macro less labour intensive production process , plus the publican can get away with slapping 50- 65% markup on what the brewery gets , plus below cost selling by established macros
Ultimately the craft industry in Ireland has to answer the question as to why you can get really good locally brewed beer for between £2-£3 a pint over the water, in fact as is often the case the macros are dearer in the UK. We do have higher input costs as an economy, but there are plenty of studies that show that higher costs here can only account for c.25% of the price difference, so that leaves us with E3.00-E3.80 for Irish craft beer.
The vintners as well need to realise that their dependence on super-pubs and their relationship with the macros is killing them, all the traffic is one way. I myself and many people I know are sick to the teeth of wall to wall branding for Guinness and all that Arthurs Day nonsense.
Quote from: cruiscinlan on October 22, 2014, 07:19:05 PM
Quote from: barkar on September 23, 2014, 03:17:54 PM
Economies of scale, lower bulk quantities from malt right through to print run on labels , h and diageo id imagine use hop extract for bittering and can demand much better prices on hops and can sub quite easily less , macro less labour intensive production process , plus the publican can get away with slapping 50- 65% markup on what the brewery gets , plus below cost selling by established macros
Ultimately the craft industry in Ireland has to answer the question as to why you can get really good locally brewed beer for between £2-£3 a pint over the water, in fact as is often the case the macros are dearer in the UK. We do have higher input costs as an economy, but there are plenty of studies that show that higher costs here can only account for c.25% of the price difference, so that leaves us with E3.00-E3.80 for Irish craft beer.
The vintners as well need to realise that their dependence on super-pubs and their relationship with the macros is killing them, all the traffic is one way. I myself and many people I know are sick to the teeth of wall to wall branding for Guinness and all that Arthurs Day nonsense.
Is there a significant difference in excise tax and licencing costs between here and the UK? What about rent and labour? (I lived in Manchester in 2009 and hardly ever paid more than £2 for a fine proper cask ale. Even in London on White Hall I could find a pint of ale for £3. This of course at a time when a pint of stout anywhere in Dublin was €4+.) Are the Irish less price-sensitive than the English? It'd be great if a publican could chime in on this. Anecdotally, I know my mates seem less motivated by price and make choices based on atmosphere and whether or not it's a place they always drank at.
Has any pub in the city centre tried to undercut competition through extremely attractive pricing? I imagine one must have but I can't recall seeing it personally.
Also, this struck me as rather cheeky at the time but I'll reserve judgement as I don't have access to the finances and inner workings of breweries here. Shane, the brewmaster for Franciscan Well told me at the beer festival that he was really happy to be able to offer in the near future a table ale which was a short beer from one of their other brews. He said it would be about 3.3% and sell for €4 in a pub. It was this price point that he seemed most proud of. To be honest, €4 seems like a joke for that unless they can work a bit of magic and make it taste like something more than the second runnings of their grain. Depending on their factor input costs, the profit margins on this one might be much larger than their other beers. All this makes me wonder if people in Dublin would really continually pay €4 for such a product, and if they will, then I suppose that's the answer to the questions posed above--the market will support it.
That's pretty much Via Maris from Galway Bay. Second running's from Foam and Fury, hopped to hell, 3.5%, €4 a pint and bloody gorgeous.
Quote from: John Edward on October 23, 2014, 09:18:44 PMEven in London on White Hall I could find a pint of ale for £3. This of course at a time when a pint of stout anywhere in Dublin was €4+.)
Isn't that basically the same price?
Quote from: John Edward on October 23, 2014, 09:18:44 PMShane, the brewmaster for Franciscan Well told me at the beer festival that he was really happy to be able to offer in the near future a table ale which was a short beer from one of their other brews. He said it would be about 3.3% and sell for €4 in a pub. It was this price point that he seemed most proud of. To be honest, €4 seems like a joke for that unless they can work a bit of magic and make it taste like something more than the second runnings of their grain.
Galway Bay have been doing exactly this for a few months now. Their "Table" beer is made from second runnings of Foam & Fury, very hop forward and certainly lacking malt complexity, but it's delicious. And the GB pubs can't keep it in stock. That's around 3.5% ABV and sells at €4 a pint. Their "Via Maris" is a similar ABV and price point, but I'm not sure if it's made from second runnings..
I'd like to think that all Irish craft breweries will have an offering like this, but of course, GB have the ability to set the prices in their own pubs. No middlemen hiking up the price.
Stands to reason that it runs out as its production depends on production of foam and fury. If you want more of it then drink all the foam and fury and then they will make you more :)
We're charged too much because we are willing to pay it. It's not going to change any time soon as the industry here is based on the principle that they can get that sort of money for a pint. Only light on the horizon may be that witherspoons can force a price drop by breaking up the cartel but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Only solution is to brew your own. It's probably better quality in most cases.
The govt needs to make it easier for breweries to sell their own goods on site and allow take out
The vintners cartel round on anyone not pricing appropriately and use their muscle with the big distributers to squeeze anyone not complying, they managed to block Whitherspoons before from opening in Capel St, but thankfully haven't managed to block them this time, they've only themselves to blame for the increase in off licence/ supermarket sales and the demise of their business. They now want to be our moral guardians calling for minimum pricing instead of competing, people are happy to pay a premium for comfortable surroundings ambiance etc, but there's a limit
Speaking for myself I am very happy that the current revolution is apparently taking hold. As for all the years that I have being drinking in pubs and being given the look because I was being awkward for asking "do you have anything other than the same as everywhere else" ???. Now at least some do :).
Quote from: DEMPSEY on October 24, 2014, 01:52:35 PM
Speaking for myself I am very happy that the current revolution is apparently taking hold. As for all the years that I have being drinking in pubs and being given the look because I was being awkward for asking "do you have anything other than the same as everywhere else" ???. Now at least some do :).
Get back to work! :P
Quote from: Dube on October 24, 2014, 02:25:09 PM
Yeah, wtf do you think this is? The weekend?
I had a funny response from a publican last night. I asked was he getting in Guinness Dublin Porter. "Nope. If I get in another porter people will only think there must be something wrong with the one I already have"
Did they not sell jameson and powers?
Quote from: Dube on October 24, 2014, 02:25:09 PM
Yeah, wtf do you think this is? The weekend?
I had a funny response from a publican last night. I asked was he getting in Guinness Dublin Porter. "Nope. If I get in another porter people will only think there must be something wrong with the one I already have"
Have you tried the Dublin Porter by the way? I had it at Stag's Head last week. Blimey, I'd prefer even a Coors Light to it. It almost seems like Guinness intentionally make awful secondary products to keep people going back to the stout.
Quote from: Dube on October 26, 2014, 12:34:57 AM
Quote from: John Edward on October 26, 2014, 12:27:01 AM
Have you tried the Dublin Porter by the way?
No, but in fairness it's the Windies one that I'm after. My expectations for a sub 4% beer are automatically low.
Ahem, I thought I changed that view? :o
Don't lump my liquid gold with that shite ye bollix
Quote from: cruiscinlan on October 22, 2014, 07:19:05 PM
Quote from: barkar on September 23, 2014, 03:17:54 PM
Economies of scale, lower bulk quantities from malt right through to print run on labels , h and diageo id imagine use hop extract for bittering and can demand much better prices on hops and can sub quite easily less , macro less labour intensive production process , plus the publican can get away with slapping 50- 65% markup on what the brewery gets , plus below cost selling by established macros
Ultimately the craft industry in Ireland has to answer the question as to why you can get really good locally brewed beer for between £2-£3 a pint over the water, in fact as is often the case the macros are dearer in the UK. We do have higher input costs as an economy, but there are plenty of studies that show that higher costs here can only account for c.25% of the price difference, so that leaves us with E3.00-E3.80 for Irish craft beer.
The vintners as well need to realise that their dependence on super-pubs and their relationship with the macros is killing them, all the traffic is one way. I myself and many people I know are sick to the teeth of wall to wall branding for Guinness and all that Arthurs Day nonsense.
Why is it cheaper in the UK?
The pubs own the taps and maintain them (which means the micros don't spend >€200 putting in a tap with an ongoing maintenance hassle)
Most micros produce Real Ale. So they are saving on refrigeration costs (refrigerated lager fermentations, cold conditioning). The beer doesn't have to be bright, so they don't lose litres filtering or have associated process aid costs.
Just some of the reasons.
Real ale is hardly cheap in a lot of places here.
Quote from: UpsidedownA (Andrew) on October 26, 2014, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: cruiscinlan on October 22, 2014, 07:19:05 PM
Quote from: barkar on September 23, 2014, 03:17:54 PM
Economies of scale, lower bulk quantities from malt right through to print run on labels , h and diageo id imagine use hop extract for bittering and can demand much better prices on hops and can sub quite easily less , macro less labour intensive production process , plus the publican can get away with slapping 50- 65% markup on what the brewery gets , plus below cost selling by established macros
Ultimately the craft industry in Ireland has to answer the question as to why you can get really good locally brewed beer for between £2-£3 a pint over the water, in fact as is often the case the macros are dearer in the UK. We do have higher input costs as an economy, but there are plenty of studies that show that higher costs here can only account for c.25% of the price difference, so that leaves us with E3.00-E3.80 for Irish craft beer.
The vintners as well need to realise that their dependence on super-pubs and their relationship with the macros is killing them, all the traffic is one way. I myself and many people I know are sick to the teeth of wall to wall branding for Guinness and all that Arthurs Day nonsense.
Why is it cheaper in the UK?
The pubs own the taps and maintain them (which means the micros don't spend >€200 putting in a tap with an ongoing maintenance hassle)
Most micros produce Real Ale. So they are saving on refrigeration costs (refrigerated lager fermentations, cold conditioning). The beer doesn't have to be bright, so they don't lose litres filtering or have associated process aid costs.
Just some of the reasons.
One brewer told me that pubs were marking up his beers by 72%+. The Big boys are usually around 50% . Craft tax. Greed. Typical Irish way of ruining things. Whatever they say about rates and overheads if they can do the big boys at 50% why not the smaller producers.
Was charged 7 euro for a bottle of Irish Craft (4.3%) at a small pub in Cork that was selling Coors for 3.50 - the bar man told me thats what craft beer costs - it's ridiculous
Quote from: Kieran the Human on October 27, 2014, 10:03:31 AM
Was charged 7 euro for a bottle of Irish Craft (4.3%) at a small pub in Cork that was selling Coors for 3.50 - the bar man told me thats what craft beer costs - it's ridiculous
That really is ridiculous.
sooner the better craft beer fans start speaking with their feet.... like I do..and support the breweries and the pubs that give good value for hard-earned cash.
The thing about giving breweries that provide value for money our cash is they're usually not Irish.
Value is not cheap beer...its where all involved ger a competitive and fair price
I dont expect to obtain a quality hand made hand bottled and hand delivered beer for 3 euros like a pint of tuborg costs. Im very happy to support small fry who work hard and do a good job even if there beer is more expensive however if the pub is happy to sell a guinness at 2 quid profit and a rascals or other real craft beer at 3.75 profit then im off to the next pub
Well I find the off license prices worse than the pubs around here. In the pub its around a fiver for Irish, English, American, German whatever. In the off license the Irish craft bottles cost quite a bit more than American or English beer. And I find very few of them can compete with those on quality. I drink plenty of pints of Irish beer but usually its from a very small selection of breweries. In the off license I very, very rarely buy Irish.
Quote from: Dube on October 27, 2014, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: mr hoppy on October 27, 2014, 03:23:21 PM
Quote from: Kieran the Human on October 27, 2014, 10:03:31 AM
Was charged 7 euro for a bottle of Irish Craft (4.3%) at a small pub in Cork that was selling Coors for 3.50 - the bar man told me thats what craft beer costs - it's ridiculous
That really is ridiculous.
What size bottle was the €7 one? Coors I think is 330ml? I don't know the price of Coors (will find out) but a 500ml of average Irish craft beer would generally be no more than €2.10 to the pub (ex VAT). So assuming it was a 500ml, out of the €7 around €1.31 is VAT, leaving the publican with €3.59. There are a few different ways to calculate markup, but leaving VAT out, that works out about 170%.
500ml bottle for 7 euro - Coors was on draught, 3.50 a pint on special, most other pints at around 4.30
And im sure its generally known what one would expect to purchase a keg of rascals, n17, bru, trouble or other small craft . if i had a pub what can i buy a craft keg at?
While a puclican can ask 20 a pint, that his business. However if an eqivalent craft style and abv is two quid dearer we need as per my earlier post speak up or talk with our feet. Its not good for local business if the pubs are profiteering by making craft not affordable versus mainstream...theres a massive student young population driven by price..
What a lot of you are neglecting is the cost of stocking and displaying the beers!
Despite my hi tech chemistry background (and computers and stuff) I am actually the end-of-line of Welsh grocers.
Think of a Welsh versions of Arkwright in Open All Hours - Us Davis' make Arkright look like a S-Sp-Sp-e-e-e-nddd thrift!
Every Grocer and modern supermarket know that stuff on shelves have to pay for their shelf space!
Eg: A tap of Guin-heino will earn lets say €200 a week. A tap of "Old Dog Beater Extra DIPA" may earn €50 a week.
Likewise a fridge full of bottled "Heino-Weisser-Can-Mex stuff" may well earn €300 a week.
Same fridge (4 shelves with 8 craft beers in it) may earn €50 a week.
So you see there may be a genuine reason why craft beers need a slight up-pricing.
NOte: I did say SLIGHT!
Guinness heino o haras creans trouble gypsey....all same price in kildare. Buy dem equivalent prices sell dem similar prices.
Will D - fair comment but it can be taken to far, and not just with Irish beers. There's beers I love - Rochefort 10, XX Bitter and others that I've stopped buying because the mark ups are grotesque and that means they end up sitting on the shelf for even longer.
just read this tread and noticed its been read over 1,000 times . i know i for 1 feel strongly about the "craft tax" and that it has to end , the vfi has to be told in no uncertin terms that if they keep this up they will kill the goose and have no craft golden eggs , i do like to support irish brewers recently i was at an event with mountain man and the cotton ball brewers and their distributor , i brought up the craft tax issue and was meet with ummmms and ahhhhhs , mountain man hairy goat is my current choice of beer but at €4 in the offlicence i buy alot less of it than i would at €3.50 . people are not stupid and a pint at +€5 leaves a bad taste ,drives people away from micros and from the pub ,take your cut by all means pubs are there to turn a profit but as i was once told in buisness "half a loaf is better than no bread at all". something like the campain for real ale in the uk should happen here , an irish beer drinkers lobby group to fight what i see as profitering
The closest you will get to a beer drinkers lobby group is Beoir.
Beoir should be the voice for this but I remember that beoir had recommended that pubs charge a premium a while back. ???
Beoir is more concerned with supporting breweries at the moment. I suppose thats the biggest thing as the scene takes off but at some point they should tackle pricing too.
i for one do support irish brewers my fave beers iv tryed in 2014 have mostly been irish micros and have encouraged people i know to stock them , one bar owner thought i was a rep for blacks and mountain man but the truth is i like certin bars and would like them to serve the beer i like . good beer is good beer but better if its irish and at a fair price .
The only issue with this is that is if they get it in and then they rip the arse out of it.
Do you buy it then?
good point john , damned if you do damned if you dont , but the idea of a hairy goat by a roaring fire has been on my mind the last few nights , and even better if it was on cask , i guess we cant always get what we want ....if witherspoons shake up the market a bit hopefully it will come .......i like my pubs old school and im far from a skinny jeans wearing hipster ,im fussy about my beer which is why i brew , but im also a tight fart lol
If ye want dear pricing than go to New York city. Beer duty is less here but bar prices are around $7.50 to $9.00 a pint. And if ye think everything is bigger here well its not their pints because they are smaller than ours ??? :(. Oh and then there is the tip you must add on >:(. Beer is good though :).
$7.50 is roughly €6 so we arnt that far , and shur they have loads of crack and hoes over there ..... must be mad for fun and gardening them lads.
Nyc is like london.. A big bloddy rip off. Beer twice de price of everywhere else! What a pint cost in a little town or village outside nyc?
They also have a higher average wage so it's not really a fair comparison.
Having worked there in the 90's I can say that we owe what we consider craft beer to the few genuine brewers that started a movement...and that all happened in the states
Thinking of having a hairy goat by a roaring fire, this would have a totally different meaning in Iraq
Quote from: hopapotamus on December 14, 2014, 09:26:15 AM
I know i for 1 feel strongly about the "craft tax" and that it has to end , the vfi has to be told in no uncertin terms that if they keep this up they will kill the goose and have no craft golden eggs
As the great Bill Hicks said if you work in marketing or advertising kill yourself. This is all marketing, known as premiumisation and brand leveraging, you're not essentially paying for the beer, you're also paying for the perceived idea or experience.
Classic example is coffee, as a raw material or commodity its $1.79/lb, as an industrial product its E3/500g, in a paper cup in McDonalds its €1,
but as an experience in Starbucks it's €2.50
I don't think we need to blame the VFI for this as they don't set prices in off-licenses and the Irish brewer with the largest chain of pubs (to my knowledge) i.e. Galway Bay has a fair whack on its products €5+ for almost all its beers (Via
Maris being the exception).
It's the same in the Irish whiskey world where although we do have the disadvantage of the 3rd highest rate of duty in the EU, Ireland is the most expensive place in the world to buy 'premium' Irish whiskey. This is as the makers know that outside of Ireland Scotch is synonymous with good whiskey, whereas as Irish is the poor relation. After all Scotch is the defacto term for whiskey.
Quote from: hopapotamus on December 14, 2014, 09:26:15 AM
people are not stupid and a pint at +€5 leaves a bad taste ,drives people away from micros and from the pub ,
I'd agree with the second point instead of the first. The evidence is that people are as happy as larry to pay E5+ for crap macro lagers and ciders.
I'm also annoyed with the fact that its cheaper for me to buy one of the big craft beers like Theakston, Shepherds Neame etc. than to buy a locally made beer, Galway Bay starts at €3.29, (€5.99 for Foam and Fury) and Independent from Carraroe has their range all at €2.99
Quote from: auralabuse on December 15, 2014, 09:40:49 PM
Thinking of having a hairy goat by a roaring fire, this would have a totally different meaning in Iraq
well living in west cork i wouldnt be saying it in public lol , but i assume the lads on this form would accept my lifestyle choices ........ love is where you find it O0
I really don't get why OFAF is so much more expensive than the rest of the GBB beers. So there's a few more hops in it, and the abv is higher but it's such a massive price jump. Great beer but very hard to justify buying.
Have ye seen the dollar euro rate lately $300 is €244 ???
Maybe the Irish beers like Galway bay are also more expensive as manufacturing is more expensive in the country. Alas, while they cost the same as some much higher quality Belgian or UK beers, I just find it hard to buy Irish. I think I've only been given Galway bay beer as gifts at home, as I can't justify paying the prices they ask when looking at all the options in an offlicence.
The pubs are just as expensive as other craft bars and you're there for the social aspect more than the beer, so that never really bothers me.
The more I've read this thread, the more I think the only way to bring the Irish off license prices down is not to buy. I just wish it was not the case.
Oh regarding ofaf, I'm guessing part of the price is also the lower yield and efforts required in a higher gravity beer, as well as the larger malt bill. It's just a pity that they've made a beer that's a really great example of Irish craft, but put it as a price point that's a disencentive to buy.
Materials don't drive prices to any significant degree. Double Irish from 8 Degrees is 2.99.
I think looking at Belgian Quad prices tells an interesting story. Pre Westvleteren 12 brick Rochefort 10 cost maybe 3.30 and St Bernardus 10 cost less than 3. In Belgium they cost hless than 2. Now R10 costs nearly 6 here and St B12 is over 4.
Why I find this interesting is they are imports, from a materials perspective they are very similar and critically they are made with a large helping of dirt cheap adjuncts (maize flour, sugar) and owe everything to expressive yeast.
I know excise may have gone up, but not to that extent.
To me that's a crystal clear case of premium pricing and the main reason I don't drink these beers any more.
If that is 330ml that makes it E4.50 for 500
Whereas 0FAF is 5.79+
Plus, who really needs a pint of DIPA instead of 330ml?
Well I bought 8 bottles of Blacks of Kinsales Black IPA yesterday for €18 in Dunnes. Thats decent value but its still double the price of macro beer. To me thats fair enough. Used to be you could get 4 of most Irish beers for a tenner just 2 years ago.
Whats I'm getting really wary about now is sampling Irish beer. Far too often I've paid €3.30-€4 for a beer and its been terrible. I like to try as much Irish beer as possible because I want to support good local brewers but they really don't make it easy.
I know i'd a pint of Bru Pale in a local hotel at the weekend €4.20 a pint - macro's all more expensive.
Was in a different pub in the town and it was €5.20 and macros about same price.
We just don't have that culture of supporting the local brewery like they do in the UK
Quote from: mr hoppy on December 16, 2014, 08:14:10 AM
Materials don't drive prices to any significant degree. Double Irish from 8 Degrees is 2.99.
I paid €3.99 for double irish in bradleys on Sunday which I didn't think bad for a 9% beer. It was €6.20 a pint in the beirhaus which I thought fair enough. Full Irish in Bradleys was 4 for €10 which I'm also happy to pay.
Maybe not - but there is an ingrained cynicism among the pubs i've talked to about it - even taking in bottles
Diag/Heino have em round their little fingers.
There are undoubtedly issues with consistancy and price.
Quote from: IrishBeerSnob on December 16, 2014, 10:44:43 AM
I know i'd a pint of Bru Pale in a local hotel at the weekend €4.20 a pint - macro's all more expensive.
Was in a different pub in the town and it was €5.20 and macros about same price.
We just don't have that culture of supporting the local brewery like they do in the UK
I heard of a restaurant charging 7.50e for a pint of draught BRU a few weeks ago. Thats mental pricing.
Quote from: Dube on December 16, 2014, 10:40:03 AM
€18 for 8 is below cost. They're probably around €2 wholesale, plus VAT.
Retailer can reclaim VAT, plus big supermarkets are very good at squeezing suppliers, particular when they discount product.
True enough, but as I said I doubt the full discount comes out of the multiple's margin.
Ask Sam rather than speculate. There may be a contract in place, cheaper earlier, dearer later, averaging at legal and not below cost selling.
Sam is a (smart) business man and knows the rules.
To claim below cost selling, you would need to know his raw material costs.
Do you know what Sam's costs are?
Quote from: auralabuse on December 15, 2014, 09:40:49 PM
Thinking of having a hairy goat by a roaring fire, this would have a totally different meaning in Iraq
best comment ever. Well done sir! giggles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPqFrR-yTFk)
regarding below cost selling.. I'd far rather give Tesco tenner for 5 beers than some local shop owner a tenner for 3.
It doesn't bother me if it's only a marketing ploy to steal business from the small shop.
I'm sure most of us will avail of the seasonal booze prices in Tesco. More power to 'em!
On the other hand though, I don't mind paying more for a great beer. Got a Nogne O 500 a few months back at €9 for a 500ml bottle and loved it. I had no problem with the amount I spent.
Was charged €7.30 for a pint of 9 White Dear Stag Rua (Red Ale) a few days ago and the price left a sour taste in my mouth. I enjoyed the beer but I probably won't buy their beers again unless I see them somewhere at a reasonable price (€5 - 5.50 for a pint)
I would imagine it's about getting market share also. It allows far more people taste the beer at those prices thus allowing for a higher amount to become brand loyal and seek out bru's products elsewhere when the promotion ends
for sure. I never bothered with sierra nevada beers until i saw them in Tesco for 5 for a tenner. now i get them occasionally as a safe go-to american.
instant brand loyalty by breaking down the natural and human apprehension of trying something new.
The Sierra Nevada i've had here was not good. It doesn't seem to travel in bottle or keg :(
Quote from: LordEoin on December 16, 2014, 10:58:18 PMOn the other hand though, I don't mind paying more for a great beer. Got a Nogne O 500 a few months back at €9 for a 500ml bottle and loved it. I had no problem with the amount I spent.
Spot on. I'll happily pay a premium for Nogne O beer too. They make special beer. I feel that way about Rochefort 10 and a few others as well. However there is a lot of over priced beer out there. Mikkeller for instance make really good beer but not €5 for a 330ml bottle good.
I absolutely love Odell IPA but I'm not paying the €4 my local offie wants for it. Especially not when half the time its not fresh. In fact that was the main reason I wanted to make my own beer, so I could get nice hoppy beer fresh without spending a fortune on it.
Quote from: Pheeel on December 16, 2014, 11:35:16 PM
The Sierra Nevada i've had here was not good. It doesn't seem to travel in bottle or keg :(
I drink the pale ale on tap all the time, I think it holds up well. I'm drinking their celebration ale right now and its fantastic.
Quote from: LordEoin on December 16, 2014, 10:58:18 PM
Quote from: auralabuse on December 15, 2014, 09:40:49 PM
Thinking of having a hairy goat by a roaring fire, this would have a totally different meaning in Iraq
best comment ever. Well done sir! giggles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPqFrR-yTFk)
regarding below cost selling.. I'd far rather give Tesco tenner for 5 beers than some local shop owner a tenner for 3.
It doesn't bother me if it's only a marketing ploy to steal business from the small shop.
I'm sure most of us will avail of the seasonal booze prices in Tesco. More power to 'em!
On the other hand though, I don't mind paying more for a great beer. Got a Nogne O 500 a few months back at €9 for a 500ml bottle and loved it. I had no problem with the amount I spent.
Was charged €7.30 for a pint of 9 White Dear Stag Rua (Red Ale) a few days ago and the price left a sour taste in my mouth. I enjoyed the beer but I probably won't buy their beers again unless I see them somewhere at a reasonable price (€5 - 5.50 for a pint)
Wow €7.30 a pint is insane. Where wss that?
rochestown park hotel
Quote from: LordEoin on December 17, 2014, 04:53:33 PM
rochestown park hotel
Still madness. Any idea how much for a pint of macro?
i think €4.50 or €4.80. it's a bit hazy...
Think its high time that we as consumers up the game a bit:
When we walk inito a bar ask "Where is the Price list (that you are legally required to display)" if its not clearly displayed.
If you are wanting to be ballsy and there is no "obvious/easy to find" price list displayed order a pint of what you know will be expensive and when the server says "here you are sir, a pint of XXXX for €7-50" tell him in no uncertain terms they are breaking the law and you will not pay for it. Just walk out
The Norseman and their new website is a perfect example of how it should be done. Even has links to Untappd and Ratebeer
They should follow that through though onto their blackboard as i got stung €6.50 for 8D Russian Imperial - for a half! :o
Most of the craft bars have very clear prices displayed. Something their brethren should adopt.
Oh, 7 quid for a Brú jaysus!
I think it's in our culture to accept what's given to us.
I've been out with many foreigners and they have no problem in just handing a pint back when they're not happy with it, but we don't do that in general.
Most barmen really don't care and will happily give the money back with little more than a curious 'why?'
At the end of the day when the managers see that X amounts of pints went down the drain at their expense it would soon sort out the quality and prices.
Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 15, 2014, 10:16:51 PM
I'm also annoyed with the fact that its cheaper for me to buy one of the big craft beers like Theakston, Shepherds Neame etc. than to buy a locally made beer, Galway Bay starts at €3.29, (€5.99 for Foam and Fury) and Independent from Carraroe has their range all at €2.99
Theakston, Shepherd Neame are large regional uk breweries, their economies of scale are similar to what macro breweries get. Their bottled premium ales regularly show up as 3 for £5 on supermarket shelves.
In the uk you would not consider them craft breweries either. It's a touchy subject, but Craft beer in the uk is often associated with Not Real Ale.
Some of the regionals are launching brewery in a brewery operations or crafting up in other ways to varying degrees of success.
In the uk craft has become a byword for premium too.
went out for a few beers yesterday evening , mutton lane had a lovely pint of medazza for 4.20, recipie seems to have changed a little ,for the better , then up to the abbot ale house for 2 pints of fran well purgetory for €5,and then on to the bierhouse for a half of west kerry winter ale €2.50 and a half of white gypsy winter ale €2.50 ...so i guess not everyone is ripping people off , had to get the bus home so i missed the blacks imperial stout on cask .............but got home with 2 hairy goats and lit the fire .........
>:D
Quote from: LordEoin on December 18, 2014, 02:42:59 AM
I think it's in our culture to accept what's given to us.
I've been out with many foreigners and they have no problem in just handing a pint back when they're not happy with it, but we don't do that in general.
Most barmen really don't care and will happily give the money back with little more than a curious 'why?'
At the end of the day when the managers see that X amounts of pints went down the drain at their expense it would soon sort out the quality and prices.
It's not just the pubs either. I visited that brewpub in Wicklow that had the falling out with the Beoir campers. They ran out of red ale and tried to sell us amber as red, despite the fact a lot of us were drinking amber anyway. Then the brewer tried to convince us it was a different batch and that why it was red or as malty. Absolute no pride in what he's doing out there. I quickly moved to drinking bottles of Kinsale instead.
Quote from: Will_D on December 17, 2014, 07:42:51 PM
If you are wanting to be ballsy and there is no "obvious/easy to find" price list displayed order a pint of what you know will be expensive and when the server says "here you are sir, a pint of XXXX for €7-50" tell him in no uncertain terms they are breaking the law and you will not pay for it. Just walk out
Trouble is it doesn't have to be very large or obvious it just has to be there. Its normally in a 8" x 5" inside the door where you can't stand long to look at it!
I would though, another real injustice is this thing of charging more than half price for a half a pint. I think its a real kick in the teeth to those who have smaller livers generally (such as women into beer) or those who want to reduce their overall consumption.
u/TheSumOfAllBeers sure I agree with you on those beers as they are huge, but again a smaller operator won't have the huge overhead and other costs, isn't that why real ale is so cheap in the UK? The small breweries don't do any of the advertising/marketing of the macros?
I wasn't aware there was a divergence between real ale and craft beer in the UK though, can anyone recommend something to read on it?
Quote from: Dube on December 18, 2014, 09:38:14 AM
jeez, the Wicklow breweries are getting a bad rap! I thought that brewpub place had a German brewer who was supposed to be fairly good?
Thats the guy. The beer is ok, well made but pretty boring, very German. I was just shocked by his attitude though. There was a big party on at the time and I think he figured all those people wouldn't know the difference. Thing is we were also there, with 2 home brewers and a few others who know their beer.
Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 18, 2014, 10:02:52 AMI would though, another real injustice is this thing of charging more than half price for a half a pint. I think its a real kick in the teeth to those who have smaller livers generally (such as women into beer) or those who want to reduce their overall consumption.
I don't agree on the half the price for half the beer argument. You don't sit on half a seat, cost half the insurance, have a half cleaned glass and get served by half a person.
Quote from: Qs on December 18, 2014, 10:24:43 AM
I don't agree on the half the price for half the beer argument. You don't sit on half a seat, cost half the insurance, have a half cleaned glass and get served by half a person.
Fair enough but in a pub the differences in the base costs between the two are infintisemal, you might as well have drink minimums like in the US if thats a driving factor.
As far as I'm concerned it discrimates against responsible drinkers.
Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 18, 2014, 12:20:21 PM
Quote from: Qs on December 18, 2014, 10:24:43 AM
I don't agree on the half the price for half the beer argument. You don't sit on half a seat, cost half the insurance, have a half cleaned glass and get served by half a person.
Fair enough but in a pub the differences in the base costs between the two are infintisemal, you might as well have drink minimums like in the US if thats a driving factor.
As far as I'm concerned it discrimates against responsible drinkers.
It's standard business practice. A double espresso doesn't count twice as much in a cafe, a half sized sirloin steak isn't half as expensive in a restaurant. People supping half pints, generally, don't bring in as much money as people drinking full ones so the business has to up the price to make up for it.
serves them lady-folk right!
ummmmm i had 2 half pints yesterday evening , at half the pint price ........in my defence i wanted to try both beers and was waiting for them to sort out the imperial stout cask .......both lovely beers btw and if i had time would have loved a pint of each , just got a call from the guy i was drinking with who went back for a "few" pints of the imperial stout bit bleary today on the phone but said it "was lovely alltogether"
Double Irish was 3.25 in Bradley today. :)
Quote from: mr hoppy on December 18, 2014, 10:32:04 PM
Double Irish was 3.25 in Bradley today. :)
Hmm, I suppose that is good news as need to go back in, as drank good bit of last weeks purchase.
Sitting in the bar in the "Inn at dromoland"
8 degrees & galway bay bottles in the fridge..
Galway bay €6 500ml
8 degrees €5.25 330ml
Big difference
Buried at sea goes down nicely tho
Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 18, 2014, 10:02:52 AM
I wasn't aware there was a divergence between real ale and craft beer in the UK though, can anyone recommend something to read on it?
Quite a bit of the mainstream UK newspaper coverage mentions it in passing, while CAMRA is having something of a civil war/identity crisis over it - read their op eds/letters to the editor in BEER.
Quote from: SlugTrap on December 28, 2014, 02:59:23 AM
Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 18, 2014, 10:02:52 AM
I wasn't aware there was a divergence between real ale and craft beer in the UK though, can anyone recommend something to read on it?
Quite a bit of the mainstream UK newspaper coverage mentions it in passing, while CAMRA is having something of a civil war/identity crisis over it - read their op eds/letters to the editor in BEER.
All except the macro breweries in the UK would count as craft by the US definition (e.g. Fullers, Shepherd Neame etc). The US definition is Small Independent Traditional breweries (where small means fewer than 6 million US barrels per year, traditional means less than 25% owned by a microbrewery, and Traditional means using either traditional or innovative ingredients) http://www.brewersassociation.org/statistics/craft-brewer-defined/
Not all craft beer is real ale, but probably all real ale is craft beer so defined. Personally I think the definition of craft beer is hopeless. The soul searching in Camra is about whether to support keg beer from microbreweries as well as real ale.