So... what do you all think?
Spoons are stopping selling Heineken and Murphys across their 926 pubs in UK & Ireland cause they wouldn't supply The Forty Foot.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/wetherspoon-axes-heineken-after-d%C3%BAn-laoghaire-pub-row-1.2031075
Wow. £60 million worth of business down the drain... that's purchasing power for you.
So now will wetherspoons not serve any stouts as beamish is owned by Heineken as well, and they only served them as Guinness wouldn't give them a cheaper price.
I do like that they're putting the pressure on at least, but they could be a monster in the making yet.
Who knows...
Heineken UK is seeking resolution according to Reuters; and I'd imagine that the Dutch owners will have something to say as the Heineken share price dropped 1% as soon as this was announced today while Spoons were trading flat.
Interesting times. I can see a case study in here some place for the economists and business heads of the world. Brand value vs purchasing power.
Quote from: dcalnan on December 09, 2014, 01:27:28 PM
So now will wetherspoons not serve any stouts as beamish is owned by Heineken as well, and they only served them as Guinness wouldn't give them a cheaper price.
Hopefully they'll get a decent stout in now.
Quote from: molc on December 09, 2014, 01:30:30 PM
I do like that they're putting the pressure on at least, but they could be a monster in the making yet.
Indeed. A sober reminder that if a super-chain like 'Spoons has that amount of power over a brewing giant like Heineken, imagine the power they have over smaller craft breweries.
This might have a knock on effect for Irish grain farmers and malsters.
We did a blind taste test at a recent bjcp night & Beamish rocked the dry stout category with 42ish points on average. With Guinness & Murphys both scoring low 20's on average iirc.
Quote from: Hop Bomb on December 09, 2014, 03:32:36 PM
We did a blind taste test at a recent bjcp night & Beamish rocked the dry stout category with 42ish points on average. With Guinness & Murphys both scoring low 20's on average iirc.
Always felt it was highly underrated due its more fuller flavour than its more well know Irish cousins that seem to have adjusted the flavour to appeal to a wider audience.
Shanna
Always been a fan of beamish and on numerous blind tests it always does well
Is it nice out of the bottle? I much prefer bottled stouts to nitro.
When I first ever started drinking stouts it was Beamish that I preferred. :)
Related question, has anyone tried the smithwicks pale ale? Was given it a pub at the weekend and it wasn't too bad I thought.
So JDW undercut the price of a pint but why do Heineken care about that ? After all are they not already after getting paid for the beer ? ???
On a side note i never liked Beamish or Murphys ,far too sweet for a stout on both and i always felt they were a lot thinner bodied than Guinness tbh. :o
Having been there once. The 2.50 pints of Beamish would be my main reason to return.
€2.50 is reasonable for a pint of Beamish and I agree it's got a bit more flavour than a Murphy's or Guinness Draught but it's still quite bland compared to a proper craft stout. I also find the finish and the mouthfeel of the macro stouts to be very lacking and not really what you expect when you they're called "stout".
Will be interesting to see how this pan outs but I imagine there's a few very angry heads in Amsterdam right now and someone in Heineken Ireland will be packing up their desk. How far off are Fran Well from their new build? They could potentially fill the stout void.
Basically, Wetherspoons is coming in from the UK where - as a big chain - it can dictate to breweries and trying the same tactics here - where the breweries dictate to publicans. Heineken's just defending it's brand / price point in the Irish market. Bigger picture is that Heineken's global revenues are nearly EUR 20 billion, so Wetherspoons represents less than 0.5% of that, so on the face of it a 6% drop in the share price (from a 52 week high) looks like an over-reaction. Not a Heineken fan particularly by the way.
Quote from: mr hoppy on December 09, 2014, 09:24:59 PM
Basically, Wetherspoons is coming in from the UK where - as a big chain - it can dictate to breweries and trying the same tactics here - where the breweries dictate to publicans. Heineken's just defending it's brand / price point in the Irish market. Bigger picture is that Heineken's global revenues are nearly EUR 20 billion, so Wetherspoons represents less than 0.5% of that, so on the face of it a 6% drop in the share price (from a 52 week high) looks like an over-reaction.
Ok but why does Heineken care what their beer is sold for by JDW when they have been paid anyway ? Sorry but i just don't understand this and i would like to know.
"So, do the brewers give the beer to the pubs for free there and then they pay them off of the profits? Trying to figure out why they care about the minimum price per pint."(from a Canadian Brewer friend) ;D
Quote from: Greg2013 on December 09, 2014, 09:36:04 PMOk but why does Heineken care what their beer is sold for by JDW when they have been paid anyway ? Sorry but i just don't understand this and i would like to know.
"So, do the brewers give the beer to the pubs for free there and then they pay them off of the profits? Trying to figure out why they care about the minimum price per pint."(from a Canadian Brewer friend) ;D
2 main reasons;
1. If JDW are selling cheap Heino then other pubs will start to ask why they can't buy it cheap. Remember, this is beer that sells for €1 in an offlicense yet costs a pub €2+. Heineken (and Diageo) aren't keen for the good times to end.
2. Heineken likes to market itself as a "premium" lager i.e. all that advertising don't come cheap! It's a basic form of price discrimination. They set minimum prices for their other brands e.g. Tiger and Paulaner as well. JDW selling it cheaper would damage the "premium" nature of the brand.
So basically Heineken are being bullies and JDW are the first to stand up to them in this country and they don't like the naughty child speaking up ? ;D
I worked in Heineken briefly. Its one big marketing and image operation painted as a premium brand.
Heineken pay mountains of cash to sponsor events, sailing, rugby etc. A chunk of the cash you hand over goes towards this.
Of course they don't want their brand cheapened.
Quote from: Greg2013 on December 09, 2014, 09:50:56 PM
So basically Heineken are being bullies and JDW are the first to stand up to them in this country and they don't like the naughty child speaking up ? ;D
Yes and no. Basically, JDW is used to being the big bullies kicking brewers around in the UK so they are using the same tactics here.
These big brand company's don't like people selling their brands lower than premium price. Sony did the same thing to any shop that wanted to reduce the price on Sony products.
They probably have the vintners in their other ear telling them that they will drop it country wide if they allow spoons to sell at a low price.
So if spoons drive a drop in price how will craft brewers manage to rdduce their prices.. Will dis result in craft beer quality cutbacks to meet pressure
Prices in the north and Britain haven't plummeted because of spoons. The Vinters can cry all they want but if Heineken and Diageo tell them they're not gonna drop their wholesale prices then they won't lower prices in the bars.
Lots of ways to increase efficiency Bren without impacting quality, eg form a co op for purchasing raw materials. The first step is to measure everything then identify losses and where improvements can be made. Hop utilisation would have to be a particular area requiring investigation, are they getting the desired EBUs for the hop input are they measuring this? Energy recycling is another major area where savings can be made
Agree rory. I wasnt saying the quality wud drop but could depending on how much pressure is on. Am i right in saying a keg of heino comesvinto a pub at roughly same price as oharas bru trouble? Anyway its most likely prices wil stay high
Quote from: brenmurph on December 10, 2014, 08:50:08 AM
So if spoons drive a drop in price how will craft brewers manage to rdduce their prices.. Will dis result in craft beer quality cutbacks to meet pressure
I think O'Sheas PA is a good examples of what can be done where margins and resources are looked at.
But is there a massive difference in price in a craft keg and Heineken or is the difference at point of sale ie the bar?
Had the Smithwicks PA a couple of years ago when I was on a stag in Killarney.I was glad of it at the time, given the rest of the choices on offer. But I've tried it subsequently, outside of any craft beer deserts, and it's pretty shite. It's not just the fact that they appear to have waved the hops over the copper, it's the fact that it's way to dry and not enough malt flavour. Just bland..
On that note is o sheas pa a consistent flavour profile or is it made like a 'soup of the day' like the amber?
Quote from: brenmurph on December 10, 2014, 10:20:17 AM
Agree rory. I wasnt saying the quality wud drop but could depending on how much pressure is on. Am i right in saying a keg of heino comesvinto a pub at roughly same price as oharas bru trouble? Anyway its most likely prices wil stay high
Pretty much but arguably the Heino is cheaper as you get free kegs off them all the time if you hit certain targets, plus they give away free kegs/bottles if you offer to do certain promotions like on rugby days the B&C would sometimes give out a free pint of Heineken if you wear your jersey. Would probably work out a good bit cheaper in the long run.
In saying that, I'm still paying £1.50 a pint for the cask ale in Derry and that includes big American breweries, as well as local ones like Hilden and Whitewater.
And we go to germany and pay 2.70 a pint anywhere (half litre + a big frothy head so same volumeas an irish pint really) and premium beers e.g ayinger, weihenstephan at 80cent in shop.. other good beers 50 cent in shop. Are we just way too expensive coz even allowing for beer taxes we are way off With pricing and no surprisenpubs closing everywhere
I wont be feeling sorry for the vintners anyway. They've brought most of their troubles on themselves with their price fixing and refusal to change their own practices.
Quote from: Qs on December 10, 2014, 11:04:40 AM
I wont be feeling sorry for the vintners anyway. They've brought most of their troubles on themselves with their price fixing and refusal to change their own practices.
Not to mention the gouging they're doing on craft beer in a lot of places, as has been documented on another thread recently.
Quote from: Bubbles on December 10, 2014, 11:46:35 AM
Quote from: Qs on December 10, 2014, 11:04:40 AM
I wont be feeling sorry for the vintners anyway. They've brought most of their troubles on themselves with their price fixing and refusal to change their own practices.
Not to mention the gouging they're doing on craft beer in a lot of places, as has been documented on another thread recently.
Hugely naive question: is the cost of production for craft & micro breweries not higher than commercials? Given they don't have the purchasing power of commercials, I assumed they're forced to pay more for inputs so I just assumed a keg of Ken was significantly cheaper than say Kinsale, or O'Haras or Bo Bristle.
To qualify the next statement I've only managed to make it to the pub about 6 nights in 2014 so... I didn't mind paying €6+ a pint for craft brews as I thought at least half (or maybe a bit more) went to the brewery (aka real people) but if brewers are selling a keg into a pub @€80/90/100 and the pub is selling that on at 300% I'm definitely not impressed. Can anyone put figures around this - I couldn't find the other thread mentioned.
http://www.jar.ie/article/the-price-of-a-pint-in-ireland
Quote from: Padraich on December 11, 2014, 08:30:51 AM
Quote from: Bubbles on December 10, 2014, 11:46:35 AM
Quote from: Qs on December 10, 2014, 11:04:40 AM
I wont be feeling sorry for the vintners anyway. They've brought most of their troubles on themselves with their price fixing and refusal to change their own practices.
Not to mention the gouging they're doing on craft beer in a lot of places, as has been documented on another thread recently.
Hugely naive question: is the cost of production for craft & micro breweries not higher than commercials? Given they don't have the purchasing power of commercials, I assumed they're forced to pay more for inputs so I just assumed a keg of Ken was significantly cheaper than say Kinsale, or O'Haras or Bo Bristle.
To qualify the next statement I've only managed to make it to the pub about 6 nights in 2014 so... I didn't mind paying €6+ a pint for craft brews as I thought at least half (or maybe a bit more) went to the brewery (aka real people) but if brewers are selling a keg into a pub @€80/90/100 and the pub is selling that on at 300% I'm definitely not impressed. Can anyone put figures around this - I couldn't find the other thread mentioned.
I don't think it's a naive question at all.. I'd love to know the answer myself.
There's some speculation that regardless of the cost of producing a pint of craft, the pubs are jacking up the prices by attaching a premium to those beers.
The thread I was referring to is here (http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,7774.0.html), plenty of discussion about the price of craft pints.
Latest word on the streets of Swords is that Spoons will NOT be developing the Boro and will just hold on to it for the forseeables!
Bummer I say
I'm sorry guys but at the end of the day we are all consumers so i am going to be blunt here,i really don't care about what the pubs overheads and costs are or how the poor publicans are struggling tbh,any pub that is charging 5euro plus for a pint of the black stuff and 6 plus for a pint of craft(depending on the beer) is ripping us all off.I got sick of it which is one reason i brew my own now and have not seen the inside of any pub in over a year.I think 5 euro is reasonable for a pint of good craft(again there are greater exceptions) and on macro i reckon JDW has it about right. ;D
When you weigh it against what you can get a can or bottle of the same beer for in a shop the price difference is too great to warrant using pubs at all IMHO,hey i know there are other considerations here but at the end of the day it all comes down to what is coming out of your pocket,everything else is irrelevant re pricing structure, i hope the pubs keep doing it as it will drive more people to home brewing and we might even get a few live ones down in the south east :o :o :o
Btw i am still a Guinness man and always will be ;D
I was in Supervalu the other day. Say the 'new' Guinness bottles for 3.29. WTF!!
Quote from: Pheeel on December 11, 2014, 11:00:55 AM
I was in Supervalu the other day. Say the 'new' Guinness bottles for 3.29. WTF!!
Yeah €3.30 in my local centra. would like to try it but no thanks. they just don't get it do they?
Quote from: Greg2013 on December 11, 2014, 10:42:22 AM
I'm sorry guys but at the end of the day we are all consumers so i am going to be blunt here,i really don't care about what the pubs overheads and costs are or how the poor publicans are struggling tbh,any pub that is charging 5euro plus for a pint of the black stuff and 6 plus for a pint of craft(depending on the beer) is ripping us all off.I got sick of it which is one reason i brew my own now and have not seen the inside of any pub in over a year.I think 5 euro is reasonable for a pint of good craft(again there are greater exceptions) and on macro i reckon JDW has it about right. ;D
When you weigh it against what you can get a can or bottle of the same beer for in a shop the price difference is too great to warrant using pubs at all IMHO,hey i know there are other considerations here but at the end of the day it all comes down to what is coming out of your pocket,everything else is irrelevant re pricing structure, i hope the pubs keep doing it as it will drive more people to home brewing and we might even get a few live ones down in the south east :o :o :o
Btw i am still a Guinness man and always will be ;D
That's a very broad sweeping statement.....I have a pub and CANNOT charge more then €4.00 Guinness or €4.20 lager, craft beer is priced same as lager. Three craft on tap, and due to overheads etc I'm lucky to pay myself at the end of the week... NOT ALL PUBLICANS ARE MONEY GRABBERS. Wages rates, Insurance, etc are cost in most businesses, what about the cost of driving people home safely or providing sky sports or music for them. It is not all about the price of a pint, I agree that some pubs rim it with pricing but the breweries keep hiking the price up and us small pubs have to absorb it most of the time. I try to provide a diverse range of beer but still have to have the big 3 on tap and they try to bully you into getting rid of "fashionable" beers. I make a stand every time and have threatened to take them out, their reply..." We'd love to see that". So if trying to make a living out of serving beer offends you then you're right to stay at home as you'd ruin the mood of the people having a good time.
Oh and as for the cost difference in the supermarket, try buying it at that from the breweries to serve in a pub
I brew my own cause I like to not because of the cost savings.
Brewing at home saves money? Where did you get that idea :D
I agree it is a very broad sweeping statement but to be fair i am ONLY looking at it from the point of a consumer and while i recognize that not all Pubs are rip offs at least around here most of them appear to be.I am sorry but to the consumer it is all about the price of a pint,at the end of the day that's all that matters.Maybe if more publicans banded together outside the ilk of the Vintners Assoc. and told the likes of Diageo to feck off things might change ? ;D
You making a living does not offend me at all,what offends me is the high price of a pint,around here a pint of Guinness is 5.50 and Bulmers is 6.00.As long as the price difference between the supermarkets and the pubs exists to the extent it does pubs will continue to lose customers,its that simple,and the impetus for changing that has to come from the pubs themselves not the consumer,so maybe it is time publicans stopped bemoaning costs and actually banded together and did something about it ? Remember you are their consumer,the power is with you,so use it. ;D
Went to a do last year and the barman was selling cans for €2.50 (or pints for the normal price)
No bad pints and great value! ;D
I'm not bemoaning costs, as I said most of the cost are the same for all businesses....but tarring the every one with the same brush is not fair. Some of us are trying to make changes, for instance I installed a three tap font for rotating beers that are not the big 3, I was told to "remove it or we will not supply beer" what do u do...I moved the tap to being the first and most obvious position on the bar, small stand but a stand all the same. My point is a small rural pub has NO standing with big breweries as we don't sell large amounts. I just take offence to people tarring me with the same brush as those that don't care about customers.
As for spoon's, I'd love if they could force hino to reduce prices and then the rest would follow, slowly...
Quote from: Oh Crap on December 11, 2014, 11:42:21 AM
I'm not bemoaning costs, as I said most of the cost are the same for all businesses....but tarring the every one with the same brush is not fair. Some of us are trying to make changes, for instance I installed a three tap font for rotating beers that are not the big 3, I was told to "remove it or we will not supply beer" what do u do...I moved the tap to being the first and most obvious position on the bar, small stand but a stand all the same. My point is a small rural pub has NO standing with big breweries as we don't sell large amounts. I just take offence to people tarring me with the same brush as those that don't care about customers.
As for spoon's, I'd love if they could force hino to reduce prices and then the rest would follow, slowly...
Ok well apologies no offence meant, i hope you can see where i am coming from as a consumer and i will try to see better where you are coming from in future,however it still boils down to what i pay out of pocket,whoever is to blame,sorry but that's just the way it is.
Maybe you can explain why you "have to" buy from the big 3 as that is the part i am not getting ? Could you not sell a craft stout instead of Guinness and just tell Diageo to feck off completely ? It is a selfish outlook on my part i know that but i also think it is an aspect most consumers do not understand,that being why do publicans always say that they "have to" buy from the big 3 and they have no choice ?
That last is a genuine question btw and i am sure the others here watching this post would appreciate a publican explaining why that is from their point of view. ;D
Sit down near the bar in a craft pub sometime and listen to customers. You will hear a lot of "oh I couldn't drink that" or " I only drink Guinness/Heineken/whatever".
It's very hard to convince people to try something different.
(generalisation alert)
The bartenders in the Porterhouse in Dublin do a great job convincing customers, but I think most of those are foreign and open to trying new drinks. The Irish just don't seem as keen.
I think it'll work for Wetherspoons purely on price - there are plenty of people who don't care what they're drinking, as long as it's cheap.
My local "craft beer" pub has a couple of mainstream taps. nice and quiet, unmarked but they're there. I think a mix is best. I abhor the anti-competition practises of the large breweries though.
As much as I can't stand Diageo, you can't just drop Guinness if you're running a rural pub. We ran out of Guinness in the B&C once and a few customers left without even bothering to try any of the Irish stouts we had. Greg, you yourself called yourself a "Guinness man" and every rural pub will be full of people who've been drinking Guniness their whole life and wouldn't dream of trying something new. "Stick to what you know" was a classic line I heard time and time again when trying to offer people samples of craft beer in the Bull and Castle. My response was normally, "you weren't born drinking Heineken, were you?"
If you don't buy from diagio or heiniken,you won't have customers....it is that simple. You can offer as many stouts as u like or lagers but less then 10% would consider trying them. I'd love to tell them to feck off and serve craft beer but let's get real people will not try them if the pub down the road has their favourite drink.
You know all fair points guys and lest ye think otherwise i have nothing against any publican personally,Brian i agree the Irish in general are not that adventurous in their choice of pints that is true.Irish Goat yes i like my Guinness no doubt,i suppose being into home brewing and craft beer now i have opened my own horizons and palate so yes it is difficult for me to understand those not willing to try true craft beers as a viable alternative. ;D
I am simply trying to wrap my head around the stranglehold the big breweries have over the pubs here and why Irish punters in general(the likes of us aside) are not doing more to help change that.Does it simply come down to the old Irish attitude of "i couldn't be arsed" ? It sure is a pity for the craft beer industry here,i look across the water and population aside they seem to be infinitely more accepting of variation in their beers and i wonder why is that and why are the Irish just so bloody stubborn ? I have several friends in UK that scratch their heads in disbelief that we can't even get the macro english ales on tap in most pubs here. ;D
Quote from: Oh Crap on December 11, 2014, 12:48:44 PM
If you don't buy from diagio or heiniken,you won't have customers....it is that simple. You can offer as many stouts as u like or lagers but less then 10% would consider trying them. I'd love to tell them to feck off and serve craft beer but let's get real people will not try them if the pub down the road has their favourite drink.
Really so it is down in a large part to the Irish consumer not being willing to try new beers for the most part ? That is a great pity but i can see what you mean now and i genuinely meant no offence by going off like that. ;D
Check out Simon Lambert and son on Facebook, they have 12+ taps I think and only 3/4 for Guinness, Carlsberg or Heineken, smithwicks and bulmers I think. The pub is in wexford town, staff will try to get customers to try alternatives to commercial stout, lager and cider. Point is it works in a reasonably large town but if that pub was in my village it would be closed. People go to Simons to try the guest beers or to enjoy a pint of O'Haras ale. It's a go to pub for these drinks.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/11/da527dec2856bb78a05b37a3c37959ec.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/11/b266d628dc2caa8418d6fa7d9603aa34.jpg)
And most under a fiver! fair play!
Quote from: googoomuck on December 11, 2014, 01:06:01 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/11/b266d628dc2caa8418d6fa7d9603aa34.jpg)
That's great! A big board in plain sight with prices. The odd time I get to order a craft beer I've to brace myself for when the barman hands over the pint and says how much...
Yum. I love seeing a chalk board of drinks when I go into a place :)
Now I want a pint ;)
Surely Wexford is a big enough town for you to go all craft and still get people in. I know here in Wicklow when a craft bar opened it was one of the most popular spots in town. Helped that they played good music and had the right staff and atmosphere. Sometimes you have to let go of the 5 old guys at the bar to get a new crowd in.
And obviously you know you're own business better than I can so I don't mean you personally Oh Crap. Just in general I've seen to many pubs afraid to take a risk and it's often what holds them back. Even my own beloved local has gone to shit because of fear of losing the auld lads.
The direction this discussion is going in is really interesting.
I'm lucky in that even though I only got out a few times last year in Tullamore there are a few places that all have craft taps in. The Copper Pot Still, Bus Bar, Wolftrap and Hugh Lynch's I'm certain have craft on with (as some of you know) Wolftrap having a very good selection. Might be more, but not 100% as the days of being a regular anywhere have passed. And I'm going to manage a few in the Brew Dock after work tomorrow so that's something to look forward to.
The funny thing though is that I made a winter beer (in another thread) but I know most of my family won't even consider it, so I did a muntons mexican cerveza (which is really really dark for what I expected) for swmbo and a Christmas party we host every year.
The point I'm making is that most towns / pubs aren't at the point of going craft only yet. I still remember my first time in the Porterhouse (when there was only one) asking for something like Corona and not liking what I got - now I can't understand how my brother won't consider anything with more bite than Tiger or Cobra (pardon the pun).
There is hope though - if we consider the growth in our home brew community, and all the bottles we give to mates and colleagues then the pool accepting of HB & craft is growing. In the meantime, Oh Crap, I hope you keep making a good profit/wage; and the thieving publicans go wallop. If you send me a direct message of your pubs name, I'll drop in for a pint of craft if I'm ever passing!
And on the original thread, just saw this: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/heineken-keeps-poker-face-despite-wetherspoon-blowback-1.2033442
The real issue is getting people to TRY different beers
Here's a trick I used on those that "stuck with what they know"
Put a half a glass of guiness, smithwicks, hino and craft of choice on the bar and challange them to taste all and see what is what...easy? Of course BUT blindfold them and do it and 99.9% cannot tell the difference, so much so that I gave many of them the same drink each time... The deal is then to drink "that quear stuff" for the next 2 pints. It gets them talking about it and next time they'll try it again
The opposite argument is also true, if they can't tell the difference why would they bother to change and be charged a premium for a product which tastes the same?
Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 11, 2014, 03:42:36 PM
The opposite argument is also true, if they can't tell the difference why would they bother to change and be charged a premium for a product which tastes the same?
Their not being charges a premium, as I said earlier craft beer is the same price as lager...
Things will not change overnight. This is a hearts and minds war that will continue on and on. The big 2 got to control matters because they understand this all too well and they are clearly worried that it is now being used against them. Social media amd discussions like this is how they are losing ground. Most craft beer drinkers are young and as time moves on the young get older and so carry the war with them with more young coming up behind. What I do see in the future is an evolving beer market with craft brewers having to innovate OK for us as we just have to watch but not so for some brewers who will not survive.
Quote from: googoomuck on December 11, 2014, 01:06:01 PM
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Bloody hell that's cheaper than a pint of Guinness in my local(not that i frequent it).See this is what i would like to see,reasonable prices for proper craft beer and two fingers to Diageo and Heineken etc. ;D
Quote from: DEMPSEY on December 11, 2014, 04:58:01 PM
What I do see in the future is an evolving beer market with craft brewers having to innovate OK for us as we just have to watch but not so for some brewers who will not survive.
Thats natural though. There are so many opening now its obvious some of them have to fail. And thats fine, the best beer will win out. Not every brewery deserves to exist.
Not so much the best beers to survive but the best run business will. ;)
Well probably a bit of both. And then even if the best beer breweries close the best run business will hire their head brewer :)
Got to be honest lads at times there's a lot of craft beer snobbery going on, if punters prefer Guinness, Heineken etc that's their prerogative. Whatever people may think of their owners, the beers have a long history and are produced to the highest quality by professionally trained brewers using best practices. When I look at Qs's latest post in "It's Friday Night...." The same can't be said for many of the craft beers currently being produced. I was bitterly disappointed at the RDS the year before last at the poor quality of some of the beers on offer, to the extent that I won't be rushing back. I enjoy diversity in taste in beer and particularly enjoy cask ales but don't feel the need to push my tastes onto others. I'm delighted to see the craft beer movement develop, but feel at times that enthusiasm alone is not enough and that charging people a premium for a product which at a number of levels may be inferior to the existing competition. It may well not be inferior but I'm afraid that the correct checks and balances are not in place first to prevent infection, but that the emphasis is more around unusual ingredient combinations.
Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on December 13, 2014, 08:16:27 AM
Got to be honest lads at times there's a lot of craft beer snobbery going on, if punters prefer Guinness, Heineken etc that's their prerogative. Whatever people may think of their owners, the beers have a long history and are produced to the highest quality by professionally trained brewers using best practices. When I look at Qs's latest post in "It's Friday Night...." The same can't be said for many of the craft beers currently being produced. I was bitterly disappointed at the RDS the year before last at the poor quality of some of the beers on offer, to the extent that I won't be rushing back. I enjoy diversity in taste in beer and particularly enjoy cask ales but don't feel the need to push my tastes onto others. I'm delighted to see the craft beer movement develop, but feel at times that enthusiasm alone is not enough and that charging people a premium for a product which at a number of levels may be inferior to the existing competition. It may well not be inferior but I'm afraid that the correct checks and balances are not in place first to prevent infection, but that the emphasis is more around unusual ingredient combinations.
Good points. There is a beer for everyone these days and although we are at a turning point in our choice of Irish beer brewery size certainly does not infer quality.
Maybe the smaller guys feel they have to add other ingredients to stand out in an ever increasing market. I do wonder to many do extensive research and pilot batches or just go straight to go and brew on a wing and a prayer...
Getting back to H. The H we get here is a poor relation of its original Dutch form and it's a real shame.
I wonder how much gets dumped from Irish craft breweries. I've also said before that there is a real problem with price vs quality on a lot of the Irish stuff. I paid €4 for a bottle of Wicklow Wolf Porter yesterday and it was a decent beer but it wasn't an amazing beer. For €4 a bottle I expect brilliant beer. Especially when I can get a great porters like Founders and Fullers for €3 or less.
It's a free market and now we have decent choice. With choice comes a range of quality, irregardless of price. We as consumers use our buying power to weed out the good from the bad. I'll happily have bought a few poor beers in exchange for having so many options as we do now.
That said, I have always tended to but more of the American and UK craft beers as I've just found them to be a superior product. Irish craft is def getting there but there is still quite a lot of variance in quality. Couple that with the fact that the domestic product is about the same price as something that is shipped from another continent and you know they are charging too much.
Oh yeah but part of being a consumer with a lot of choice means talking to other people who know about beer and sharing our findings.
There is a place for ANY beer. As was said, if you like Guinness or Heineken etc so be it....but surely the argument for craft beer is diversity...
Quality and staff knowledge are key to promoting alternative beers.
There is a new brewery 10 mins from my house, I call in regular for a nose and chat, we always have a beer, it's really nice stuff (saison) BUT last weekend I was at a party and the pub was serving his beer on tap so naturally I went for it, disappointed isn't the word, I put it down to 1st pint syndrome but it carried on, I said it to the owner who swore blind that at least 5 people were drinking it and informed me in a nice way "But sure that's the PROBLEM wit them beers, they all taste funny"
He could have said that they taste different then the norm. I watched and noticed that the people he said were drinking it ordered the same again, 3 pints of Ken and 2 carlsburg.... He noticed me smiling to myself and when I went to order another round he asked if I wanted a proper pint....I ordered the same and then sent it back whilst informing that his beer was off an that when I'm in the brewery with ******* that there was no vinegary flavour there.....he suddenly had to change the barrel....
Its sad that none of that is surprising. Seen it happen all too often.
He should have had the cop on to change it without the nudge! How do you find the sales of craft in your pub oh crap?
Quote from: ronnieb on December 13, 2014, 01:41:31 PM
He should have had the cop on to change it without the nudge! How do you find the sales of craft in your pub oh crap?
Slow,
What I used to do was order smallest keg size, and untap the keg during the week and clean out the line before Friday nights, beer was fresh every pint...
Do you have a Facebook page for the pub?
Quote from: Qs on December 13, 2014, 10:47:36 AM
I wonder how much gets dumped from Irish craft breweries. I've also said before that there is a real problem with price vs quality on a lot of the Irish stuff. I paid €4 for a bottle of Wicklow Wolf Porter yesterday and it was a decent beer but it wasn't an amazing beer. For €4 a bottle I expect brilliant beer. Especially when I can get a great porters like Founders and Fullers for €3 or less.
The price of Wicklow Wolf came up in conversation yesterday. Very pricey. No idea why when other Irish micros are 3.30e mark for the same size bottle. They obviously have margins they need to make to stay in business.
I know what our brewery gets per keg of 4.5% to 5.5% beer per 30 litre keg. I can tell you that every cent of it is hard earned. If you feel like you're being ripped off I can tell you hand on heart its not the breweries who are gouging you... Im aware that bars have overheads, they have their margins they apply to every beer they sell. Making a profit is what bars are supposed to do. At the end of the day its what the market can bare. Dont like the price, dont pay for it. Its the only way it will change.
But I dont see it ever changing tbh. Ive stopped drinking pints myself partly because Im so wrecked after a weeks work in the brewery, I get too drunk & fall asleep, & partly because of the price of a lot of draught beers I want to try. I drink halves now & its a much better drinking experience for me. I get to try way more beers, Im nowhere near as drunk & still have a great night out at the pub. Pints should be affordable but its close to 7e for some imports I want to try. F!ck that! Smaller glass please.
A quick one on beer quality: Almost all breweries here are pretty new, have inexperienced owners & brewers & are just finding their feet. Some dont have adequate packaging facilities & you get oxidised batches of beer going out the door which usually doesnt show until beer is on the shelf in the shop (GBB just invested 150,000e in a bottling line to put an end to our (occasional) packaging issues) Some breweries just make bad beer. That will change (hopefully) as the brewers hone their craft or as the breweries hire more talented, experienced brewers.
We need to give the local beer scene here time to grow & flourish. It wont happen over night. Look at any stellar brewery across the pond & their brewers have all served their time at another brewery(s) for years before opening their own place. That hasnt happened here. Most of the breweries here are first timers, its their brewers first gig. Its gona take time.
Not all beer from the big US craft guys is flawless. We had some stinkers at the BJCP night here from Mikeller, Anchor & Sierra Nevada to name a few. The first two had fermentation flaws, the last one was just old (im sure it was good at one stage)
Im positive the beer scene here will be in a much better state 5 years from now. We just need to be supportive, patient & bring any quality & price issues to the attention of the breweries & brewers.
I'm definitely looking forward to more breweries getting their own packaging systems. Its such a major part of quality control.
Black Donkey have their bottling line up and running now.
Every beer transfer involves risk of DO pickup and if the beer has to be sent off site for packaging this carries even more risk. So in fairness to the packaging company, they can only put what is delivered into the bottle/can/keg. If the beer already has a high DO then there's nothing much they can do regardless of how good their packaging system is. The difference between the big breweries and the smaller guys really is resources, they can afford in house lab teams, so that beer is tested at each stage of the process, for micro as well as the rest of the specs eg colour abv gas content EBUs etc. a portable orbisphere for testing gas content runs at about €10k but without these luxuries you are shooting in the dark.
That's why as home brewers were far better off bottle conditioning rather than playing around with counter pressure bottling wands, unless you are going to get through your beer quickly. Even the likes of Budweiser who are world leaders in packaging standards ( in their brewery in Mortlake London their limit on DO in final package was an incredible 10 parts per billion, everyone else at that time had targets in parts per million) still have a 6 month best before date on the beers while Duvel for example primarily due to bottle conditioning have a couple of years BB dates on theirs.
Quote from: ronnieb on December 14, 2014, 06:58:02 PM
Black Donkey have their bottling line up and running now.
And metal man have installed the canning line.
Any idea when the cans will hit the market?
According to them (via Twitter) early next year. They seem to have a prototype amber beer @5.6% dry hopped with Willamette and summit on tap in Geoffs in Waterford. Anyone down that way want to take one for the team and have a cheeky sample?!
Quote from: googoomuck on December 16, 2014, 12:10:24 AM
According to them (via Twitter) early next year. They seem to have a prototype amber beer @5.6% dry hopped with Willamette and summit on tap in Geoffs in Waterford. Anyone down that way want to take one for the team and have a cheeky sample?!
Ah shure gwan then ;D
Quote from: googoomuck on December 16, 2014, 12:10:24 AM
According to them (via Twitter) early next year. They seem to have a prototype amber beer @5.6% dry hopped with Willamette and summit on tap in Geoffs in Waterford. Anyone down that way want to take one for the team and have a cheeky sample?!
They had it on draught at the RDS in September. It's nice, but it's no Metalman Pale Ale.
@Greg, good man, tough job but someone has to do it. @Goat, nice beer that alright. Anywhere I've been have always been out of their other beers so I've only had the pale ale.
Quote from: irish_goat on December 16, 2014, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: googoomuck on December 16, 2014, 12:10:24 AM
According to them (via Twitter) early next year. They seem to have a prototype amber beer @5.6% dry hopped with Willamette and summit on tap in Geoffs in Waterford. Anyone down that way want to take one for the team and have a cheeky sample?!
They had it on draught at the RDS in September. It's nice, but it's no Metalman Pale Ale.
Yes Metalman IPA i have to say is a smashing pint,had it a couple times on tap at Geoffs(Flash's place ?),fresh and tasty,lovely hops and from someone that is more of a malt maniac than a hop head ;D
Quote from: googoomuck on December 16, 2014, 11:52:32 AM
@Greg, good man, tough job but someone has to do it. @Goat, nice beer that alright. Anywhere I've been have always been out of their other beers so I've only had the pale ale.
What's the new amber ale called ? Is this new amber ale and Metalman available in cans or bottles around Waterford yet as in would like to get a few in for Christmas ? ;D
Quote from: Greg2013 on December 16, 2014, 01:01:34 PMWhat's the new amber ale called ? Is this new amber ale and Metalman available in cans or bottles around Waterford yet as in would like to get a few in for Christmas ? ;D
It's just called "Can Prototype #1", no cans out yet though. I assume they're still fine tuning the canning machine.
No idea what the new amber beer is called, they said it was a canning prototype. Beers won't be available in cans till early next year. I was in the gingerman during the summer, they had the tent cards on the tables advertising all the metalman beers, all sold out/unavailable bar the IPA. Not a bad thing though cause it's delicious.
Piece in todays Indo:
Quote from: Dube on December 16, 2014, 02:27:44 PM
Hmm, Cask are actually Canadian. Disappointing to see so early on in an article.
Can is also a USP. It helps them stand out in an increasingly crowded market.
Not a USP if your trying to build up your supply of glass bottles, which for me is the reason I pass by the 8 degree and franiscan well bottles in the off licience, though must try them at some point.
It will be interesting to see how their sales of cans will go, it will be an uphill battle for them I would say and pubs would be hesitant to stock them.
Thats right cans!
Quote from: Oh Crap on December 13, 2014, 11:58:01 AM
I said it to the owner who swore blind that at least 5 people were drinking it and informed me in a nice way "But sure that's the PROBLEM wit them beers, they all taste funny"
Its odd how little those who sell product will know about it in my experience. Two thoughts on Irish pubs, the first would be that all knowledge of properly storing casks (if it was a cask ale) has been lost. Also I did a few stints in a pub in Belgium and there all the kegs are untapped at the end of the night and the lines are plugged into a panel that has mains water plumbed in. Obviously there's be more wastage but it eliminates first pint syndrome and the necessity for whatever satanic brew they 'clean' the lines with. Do any Irish pubs run a system like that?
Quote from: cruiscinlan on December 17, 2014, 12:44:45 PM
Quote from: Oh Crap on December 13, 2014, 11:58:01 AM
I said it to the owner who swore blind that at least 5 people were drinking it and informed me in a nice way "But sure that's the PROBLEM wit them beers, they all taste funny"
Its odd how little those who sell product will know about it in my experience. Two thoughts on Irish pubs, the first would be that all knowledge of properly storing casks (if it was a cask ale) has been lost. Also I did a few stints in a pub in Belgium and there all the kegs are untapped at the end of the night and the lines are plugged into a panel that has mains water plumbed in. Obviously there's be more wastage but it eliminates first pint syndrome and the necessity for whatever satanic brew they 'clean' the lines with. Do any Irish pubs run a system like that?
If you look back a few of my replies you'll see your answer :) all it takes is a little pride in your work to produce good results...
It wasn't a cask ale, I just don't want to name specific breweries (even tho the beer is exceptional)
Quote from: Oh Crap on December 17, 2014, 01:28:13 PM
If you look back a few of my replies you'll see your answer :) all it takes is a little pride in your work to produce good results...
It wasn't a cask ale, I just don't want to name specific breweries (even tho the beer is exceptional)
Ah yeah sure I wouldn't want you to name them on a forum. Its more a general point that the craft scene here hasn't resulted in any cask ales being available even in those pubs that sell their own beer. I know there's issues with stock/turnover but especially the fellas in the tradwe with their own pubs they have all the details already on what they have and sell etc.
I must've missed it in your posts, in your own pub did you have such a panel where the lines are tapped into mains water every night?
Went across the road after work to a hotel for a pint, check this shit out!!
Whites hotel in wexford town. Charlatans is all they are.
That is outrageous pricing for wexford town! Ah well the Sky & the Ground is just down the road from Whites.
Quote from: Bubbles on December 20, 2014, 07:33:08 PM
That is outrageous pricing for wexford town! Ah well the Sky & the Ground is just down the road from Whites.
Simons Place on the main street is giving the sky a run for its money with the beers they have on offer. Hard to beat the sky for atmosphere though.
Quote from: googoomuck on December 20, 2014, 06:05:37 PM
Went across the road after work to a hotel for a pint, check this shit out!!
Paid 6.50 for a bottle of O'haras red lastnight in The Schoolhouse. Just after paying 3 quid for a glass of Dublin porter. I didn't buy any more.. wine was 7.25 a glass, so it wasn't simply craft tax though.
Was having a bottle of O'Sheas Golden Ale last night and it occurred to me that the stand off between Heniken and Wetherspoons could be a great opportunity for Aldi and Carlow brewing. Carlow are already producing O'Sheas for Aldi for what must be a bulk discount similar to what Wetherspoons would be looking for. Could Carlow with permission from Aldi provide the O'Sheas range on draft to Wetherspoons. It would be a great marketing stroke for Aldi.
Quote from: Chris on December 22, 2014, 11:20:24 AM
Was having a bottle of O'Sheas Golden Ale last night and it occurred to me that the stand off between Heniken and Wetherspoons could be a great opportunity for Aldi and Carlow brewing. Carlow are already producing O'Sheas for Aldi for what must be a bulk discount similar to what Wetherspoons would be looking for. Could Carlow with permission from Aldi provide the O'Sheas range on draft to Wetherspoons. It would be a great marketing stroke for Aldi.
why wouldn't they just supply O'Haras - presumably the beer costs about the same to produce regardless of the which brand is on the label?
Quote from: shweeney on December 22, 2014, 11:55:23 AM
Quote from: Chris on December 22, 2014, 11:20:24 AM
Was having a bottle of O'Sheas Golden Ale last night and it occurred to me that the stand off between Heniken and Wetherspoons could be a great opportunity for Aldi and Carlow brewing. Carlow are already producing O'Sheas for Aldi for what must be a bulk discount similar to what Wetherspoons would be looking for. Could Carlow with permission from Aldi provide the O'Sheas range on draft to Wetherspoons. It would be a great marketing stroke for Aldi.
why wouldn't they just supply O'Haras - presumably the beer costs about the same to produce regardless of the which brand is on the label?
if they started supplying OHaras at a reduced price to Wetherspoons all the other suppliers would be demanding similar prices but as O Sheas is already supplied as a reduced price brand this would not be a difficulty.
I wonder who owns the O'Shea's brand. :-\
On good value in beer...
Sitting beside a lad at work and he was in The Bull & Castle in Christchurch Place last night..
Pint of MetalMan - €4.50!
30 Wetherspoons pubs planned for Ireland in the next two years supposedly: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/wetherspoon-unveils-plans-for-200-pubs-in-britain-and-ireland-1.2050425
Seems Spoons and Heino have patched things up.
Spoons will be selling Beamish and Foster rather than Murphys and Heino.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/jd-wetherspoon-strikes-new-deal-with-heineken-30882519.html
Heino get to save face and can still state with a straight face that Heiono is a premium beer while fosters is just that other yellow stuff we flog from Auz :P
That's what I was thinking, perfect solution for both parties really.
I don't think Fosters is Australian. Thats just the marketing spin.
Quote from: johnrm on January 06, 2015, 12:37:29 AM
I don't think Fosters is Australian. Thats just the marketing spin.
Fosters is not popular in Australia but is an Australian brand. It is owned by South Arfica group SABMiller and european rights owned by Heineken International http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foster%27s_Lager
So the love of it by Australians is marketing spin then ;-)
Fosters isn't particularly popular here either, at least not since the 80s
Quote from: mr hoppy on January 05, 2015, 01:39:40 PM
Seems Spoons and Heino have patched things up.
Spoons will be selling Beamish and Foster rather than Murphys and Heino.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/jd-wetherspoon-strikes-new-deal-with-heineken-30882519.html
No question that their disagreement was ever going to last. They didn't even bother to remove the Heineken pumps from the Spoons in Derry.
Quote from: Bock on January 06, 2015, 09:54:08 AM
It got a new lease of life with the recession when a lot of pubs started selling it for €3.30 a pint. Ditto for the Guinnessberg equivalent, Tuborg.
I thought Tuborg was nice enough for what it is.
Quote from: mr hoppy on January 06, 2015, 06:57:01 PM
Quote from: Bock on January 06, 2015, 09:54:08 AM
It got a new lease of life with the recession when a lot of pubs started selling it for €3.30 a pint. Ditto for the Guinnessberg equivalent, Tuborg.
I thought Tuborg was nice enough for what it is.
Me too, best of a bad lot. I think it's considered a "premium" beer in the states.
And an attack from right of centre http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/250-pub-pints-should-be-outlawed-says-fg-td-30880442.html
Genuine concern for the health of the nation? Rather the VFI at work again methinks.
I see someone has had a go off Mary Mitchell O'Connor's wikipedia page as a result.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mitchell_O%27Connor
Quote from: mr hoppy on January 06, 2015, 09:14:58 PM
I see someone has had a go off Mary Mitchell O'Connor's wikipedia page as a result.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mitchell_O%27Connor
Now that was quick,tell me how did you find out to check this ;). Depressing reading again with yet another school teacher as a politician. Can we have an agreed quota of Teachers as politicians in the next Dail I wonder :) :)
Silly, silly woman. Can't believe I gave her a vote in the last GE..
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/elections/comment-analysis/lise-hand-new-td-gets-crash-course-in-politics-26710071.html
Quote from: DEMPSEY on January 06, 2015, 10:12:56 PM
Now that was quick,tell me how did you find out to check this
After looking at the Indo article I wondered if she had a vested interest so I nipped over to Wikipedia, and lo and behold...
[/quote]
Now that was quick,tell me how did you find out to check this ;). Depressing reading again with yet another school teacher as a politician. Can we have an agreed quota of Teachers as politicians in the next Dail I wonder :) :)
[/quote]
I think publican's have always been the most well represented group in the Dail, certainly was the case in the past.
The argument that 2.50 pints are a problem is ridiculous. We had all the issues of binge drinking in this country before Spoons arrived. €6 pint pubs are still full of drunks. Price isn't the issue here.
Quote from: irish_goat on January 07, 2015, 09:44:16 AMPints of cask ale in Wetherspoons are now £1.29 (€1.64)
(Quote from Irish Goat in the Derry thread)
and meanwhile... down south... our politicians are doing everything they can to appease the vintners lobby groups (group?) by crying out for minimum pricing. Like the arrival of Wetherspoons is going to have any effect on the problems of alcoholism or anti-social behaviour in this country! Take a stroll down to the Three Tun Tavern - I don't see anyone causing fights or destroying their livers down there. They're all just filling their boots on the cheap grub, as far as I can see.
And the journalists are worse, whipping up the idiot masses into a state of frenzy by telling them that the arrival of JDW in this country is going to destroy the fabled "Irish Pub". Does this concept of an "Irish pub" even exist any more?
Most people are more concerned with the decor in a pub than how the beer tastes, that's obvious. Old roadsigns, a few dusty books, stuffed pheasant. There's your Irish pub right there...
Quote from: Qs on January 07, 2015, 10:16:29 AM
The argument that 2.50 pints are a problem is ridiculous. We had all the issues of binge drinking in this country before Spoons arrived. €6 pint pubs are still full of drunks. Price isn't the issue here.
A pub selling €6 pints will attract a very different customer (in terms of economic purchasing power) than a pub that is selling a €2.50 pint and yes your right you can find drunks in both of these pubs. However I am not sure that I would agree that price is not an issue that causes increased consumption.
Cheap alcohol from whatever source e.g pub, off license, supermarket does tend to lead to increased consumption but its usually also linked with greater availability. Put bluntly if you can buy drink more freely for less money you will tend to drink more. Price controls and availability restrictions reduce consumption over time. This may be contrary to the posts here but I am trying to say that two or three pubs selling cut price beer will not make a difference. 50 or 100 across the country is a different matter entirely. The publicans are worried because of the economic effect on their business but I would imagine that the guards/emergency services/hospital staff will be even more worried if over time they have to deal with more and more people overdoing it on cheap booze.
The comments made by this politician and others in Ireland though are completely disingenuous as they are not impartial due to the conflict of interest where people are part owners or supported by publicans. Swedens department of health did a study - http://www.systembolagetkampanj.se/forskarrapport_en/downloads/Hela_rapporten.pdf on the projected impact of allowing private sources sell alcohol & it forecast increased consumption.
Sweden had a recognised alcolhism problem at the end of the 19th century that they got on top of by nationalising the sale and distribution of drink. Ireland most abused drug of choice is alcohol, but unlike the heroin addict on the street its unseen in the homes and bars across the country. Alcohol abuse contributes to road traffic accidents, mental health issues, depression, suicides, domestic abuse, family breakup, self harm as well as direct health issues such as liver and kidney problems. We as a nation have an fucked up relationship with drink & don't just take my word on it. Read the stats about the number of people who have alcohol addictions here its absolutely frightening http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/alcohol-related-harm-facts-and-statistics/
Don't get me wrong, I like my booze as much as the next man, and will overdo it on occasion but I am honest enough to know it can become all consuming very easily and its visible at all aspects of life here. Take any occasion from a child's christening to a funeral here and there is drink involved.
Shanna
I have spent a large portion if my life surrounded by free drink, some people can cope with this without issues and others can't . I am currently on holiday in an all inclusive resort, some days I drink only water other times I drink beer. I have met two other Irish families I feel that I am a normal individual without the urge or need to get drunk just because it's free and I can have as much as I want,.
I think that the issue relates to the importance some people are thought to associate with alcohol from an early age. If you see moderate drinking around you then you learn to drink moderately, but if your prospective is they you spend your Sunday parked in a pub for the day, from an early age then in all probability "Monkey see, monkey do" will prevail. I don't know the answer to the problem but can't see how punishing responsible drinkers with higher prices will resolve the issue of irresponsible drinking.
I spend a lot of time in Spain, and although they also are not without problems, however at a water park near my house they have uncontrolled slot machines selling Coke, 7up and beer, the cheapest option is beer, and yet the teenagers hanging around these machines are drinking soft drinks. I know for sure that the reverse would unfortunately be the norm in Ireland. We seem to put too much significance in alcohol consumption, from Christenings to communions to anything to celebrate must include people getting drunk. It's not natural for young people to like the flavour of alcohol, their taste preference generally is towards sweeter things, it saddens me to see young people drinking to get drunk rather than for enjoyment of the product, be it beer or wine etc. then you have the multi nationals inventing super sweet Alcopops or in my option even worse Red Bull, which keeps people vertical when they should be horizontal.
I don't think pricing is the answer, I spent some time working in Copenhagen, and on Friday evenings the place filled up with Swedish young men who spent every weekend on a binge, both places are expensive for drinking just one cheaper than the other..
It's a complex problem to which increasing publicans profit margins is certainly not the only solution
Some great posts there guys. I think the Swedish model is quite interesting, as they both control supply and availability, but a side effect is they also bring prices down through group buying as a country. You can get great beers over there and much cheaper prices than here, but you have to get to the off license I'm the early evening otherwise it's closed, almost like office hours.
In Ireland, we have a problem of culture and relationship. Increasing supply with cheaper prices and later opening hours may not be a cause, but changing it is part of the solution until we can reestablish a healthy relationship with drink.
An interesting fact about the Systeme in Sweden... if you order a minimum of 6 bottles of wine through them, from anywhere in the world, regardless of price, they will sell them to you at cost + fixed % margin + tax; free of delivery. My brother lives there and raves about the service. He's gotten some really hard to get wine this way!
My issue with minimum pricing is that it exclusively targets the less well off.
By extension it insinuates that the majority of problems rest at the feet of the less well off.
Quote from: Sorcerers Apprentice on January 08, 2015, 01:47:37 AM
I have spent a large portion if my life surrounded by free drink, some people can cope with this without issues and others can't . I am currently on holiday in an all inclusive resort, some days I drink only water other times I drink beer. I have met two other Irish families I feel that I am a normal individual without the urge or need to get drunk just because it's free and I can have as much as I want,.
I think that the issue relates to the importance some people are thought to associate with alcohol from an early age. If you see moderate drinking around you then you learn to drink moderately, but if your prospective is they you spend your Sunday parked in a pub for the day, from an early age then in all probability "Monkey see, monkey do" will prevail. I don't know the answer to the problem but can't see how punishing responsible driinkers with higher prices will resolve the issue of irresponsible drinking.
I spend a lot of time in Spain, and although they also are not without problems, however at a water park near my house they have uncontrolled slot machines selling Coke, 7up and beer, the cheapest option is beer, and yet the teenagers hanging around these machines are drinking soft drinks. I know for sure that the reverse would unfortunately be the norm in Ireland. We seem to put too much significance in alcohol consumption, from Christenings to communions to anything to celebrate must include people getting drunk. It's not natural for young people to like the flavour of alcohol, their taste preference generally is towards sweeter things, it saddens me to see young people drinking to get drunk rather than for enjoyment of the product, be it beer or wine etc. then you have the multi nationals inventing super sweet Alcopops or in my option even worse Red Bull, which keeps people vertical when they should be horizontal.
I don't think pricing is the answer, I spent some time working in Copenhagen, and on Friday evenings the place filled up with Swedish young men who spent every weekend on a binge, both places are expensive for drinking just one cheaper than the other..
It's a complex problem to which increasing publicans profit margins is certainly not the only solution
I lived in Madrid for a year in the city centre. On inummerable occasions I saw groups of Spanish teenagers knocking back local concoction of cheapest red wine mixed with Coke. Sangria & spirits mixes with sweet drinks were the norm for colleagues & friends. I would have saw them drink just as much but just different choices.
Shanna
I had said they weren't without problems and the Botellón parties are a manir source of concern for them. These are street parties organised over social media sites whereby large numbers of youths arrange to meet up and drink. The typical drink involves a 2 or 3 litre bottle (botellón) of coke which has had some of the coke replaced with a bottle of vodka or similar.
However the fact still remains that a vending machine selling beer in a water park wasn't abused by the Spanish kids who were there to enjoy the water park rather than to get drunk.
Another point to note is that at this time of the year some areas of Scandanavia have very little daylight which is an extra factor to deal with and a contributory part of their issues with alcoholism, which we don't have to deal with in Ireland
I don't think anyone would argue that alcohol doesn't bring with it quite a few problems for society but I seriously can't see how looking for a higher minimum than €2.50 in a pub is going to help. People can still get cheaper alcohol in supermarkets. Not to mention that drinking pints is a slower, safer way to drink than drinking spirits or even wine. Of course you don't hear the prohibitionist FGers asking for minimum pricing on glasses of wine in the pub.
Minimum pricing is simply an attack on the poor anyway. If alcohol is such a terrible thing then make stricter rules that effect everyone, even the well off.
Quote from: molc on January 08, 2015, 08:42:38 AM
You can get great beers over there and much cheaper prices than here, but you have to get to the off license I'm the early evening otherwise it's closed, almost like office hours.
What! Sweden cheap! Its incredibly dear there for alcohol especially spirits, the Systembolgaet closes at 7pm. Despite the high prices and restrictions on availability they have the same problems with alcohol as Ireland and the UK.
Like liquor control boards in the various US states and Canada its a hangover from an era of very heavy state regulation and Prohibition; are gold mines for those who run the monopolies, and awful news for consumers.
I lived in Sweden for a few months and the system they have is a nightmare for the consumer. As noted it is not cheap and you have to bust a ball sack to get to the systembolagaet before it closes. I think they opened for a few hours on a Sat morn and the set-up did not discourage drinking as you would see Swedes with shopping trollies full of booze on Friday evening/Sat morning stocking up for the weekend.