National Homebrew Club Ireland

Got some of these cans today, when I had it on draught I loved it but the can was a bit of a let down.
Maybe they need to get a few batches through their new canning system but at the moment I don't think it's worth the price that it's being sold at.

How much did you pay?

My local offy has them 4 for €10, gonna stock up I think.

Are they 33cl or 50cl?

€2.79 for a 33cl can. The same price as Founders centennial/all day which are brilliant from the can

Rip of at that price, won't be buying. Over €4 for a pint of standard pale ale seems to be the norm these days with Irish brewery's so I'll stick to the American stuff.

Its grossly unfair to compare a tiny Waterford micro brewer on price to a juggernaut US brewery (who is no 30% owned by san miguel)

Quote from: Hop Bomb on January 29, 2015, 12:59:39 PM
Its grossly unfair to compare a tiny Waterford micro brewer on price to a juggernaut US brewery (who is no 30% owned by san miguel)

Brewdog is 4 for a tenner, same for Sierra Nevada.

Even with the supermarkets I can usually get 4 for €9 with Blacks and O'Hara's beers at least once a month and they are 500ml.

Even do a direct comparison with an Irish beer from the off license, it's more expensive to buy Metalman than a  6.7% Blackbucket.....

As a consumer I don't see how it is grossly unfair to compare. You have Mountain Man selling a bog standard 4% pale ale for €4 and the same with countless other of these new Irish brewery's that are popping up everywhere.

I can't see it lasting

The multiples sell below cost. The off trade can't match buying a blacks for more then they are selling it or any other brand for that matter.

Quote from: winstonia on January 29, 2015, 01:41:44 PM

Quote from: Hop Bomb on January 29, 2015, 12:59:39 PM
Its grossly unfair to compare a tiny Waterford micro brewer on price to a juggernaut US brewery (who is no 30% owned by san miguel)

Brewdog is 4 for a tenner, same for Sierra Nevada.

Again, both massive breweries. O Haras are massive too. Blacks deal is a real good deal to be fair.

I dont think 2.80e is over priced for a can. Founders stuff is much better but I dont think its fair to compare both breweries on price. There is only 30 or 40c in the difference, is that really worth people losing their minds over? (see boards.ie thread)

I think anything more than 3.49e for 500ml is taking the piss. Thats the very upper limit for me price wise. There is value offies out there that arent ripping people off. A case of beer leaves the brewery at a set price to the distributor. What happens after that is out of the breweries control. So if you see OFAF for 7.15e dont be an idiot & buy it. Get it at drinkstore for 5.65. Or better still get it on draught at the pub, its cheaper & tastes better.  If you see Kinnegar for 4.19e a bottle dont buy it... Value to be had if you shop smartly.

Quote from: Qs on January 28, 2015, 07:41:02 PM
My local offy has them 4 for €10, gonna stock up I think.

That is a decent price. May stock up too

Actually I stand corrected. Its very pricey. Stats from a post on beoir:

Howling Gale Ale 330ML           €1.99        (€5.97 per litre)
Hophead Irish Pale Ale 330ML   €1.99   (€5.97 per litre)
Full Sail Dry Hopped IPA 500ML   €2.99   (€5.98 per litre)
O'Hara's Irish Pale Ale 500ML   €3.20        (€6.40 per litre)
Sabotage India Pale Ale 500ML   €3.40   (€6.80 per litre)
Helvick Gold Blonde Ale 500ML   €3.40   (€6.80 per litre)
Galway Hooker 500ML           €3.50        (€7.00 per litre)
Kinsale Pale Ale 500ML               €3.50        (€7.00 per litre)
Independent Pale Ale 500ML   €3.60   (€7.20 per litre)
Bo Bristle IPA 500ML                  €3.70        (€7.40 per litre)
Scraggy Bay IPA 500ML              €3.80   (€7.60 per litre)
Metalman Pale Ale Can 330ML   €2.80        (€8.40 per litre)

Well I'd rather pay for Metalman in a can than an awful lot of Irish beer in 500ml bottles thats gone to England and back and tends to be very inconsistent by the time it hits the shelves.

And I don't see Brewdog at better prices than the Irish breweries either. Their cans are about the same price as Metalman and their bottles slightly more.

Only three or possibly four off that list contract bottle afaik. And some dont go all the way to mainland UK. I think Hilden do it.

I get your point. Ive no problem paying 2.80e a can. That list having every beer broken down in to price per ml is a bit of an eye opener. Metalman is the smallest abv beer on there too.

More importantly how is the beer inside the package? Has anyone had some yet? 

I had a can the other night, the beer was fine, in good nick and very similar to the draught version.

But at the end of the day €8.40 per litre for a low abv pale ale is too expensive and I wont be buying any more.

To be fair, you can get the Metalman cans for 4 for €10, which brings the price down to about €7.50 a litre. Still quite high but I won't mind paying it the odd time for the handiness of cans. If I was having a bit of a session in the house though I'd probably stick to the better value 500mls.

Quote from: irish_goat on January 30, 2015, 10:31:00 AM
To be fair, you can get the Metalman cans for 4 for €10, which brings the price down to about €7.50 a litre. Still quite high but I won't mind paying it the odd time for the handiness of cans. If I was having a bit of a session in the house though I'd probably stick to the better value 500mls.

I have a can of this in the fridge chilling and it cost me near 4 euro in World Of Wines near WRH,a right fooking rip off but i love the beer,have had it on tap,so said sure why not.To each their own guys but you simply cannot justify that kind of pricing for any beer that is shall we say"not special"(figure of speech there).

If i am near a tap serving it i will get a pint but i won't ever be buying it again off the shelf as long as they price it like that,the brewery has a huge part to play in setting the RRP and to say i am disappointed in how this is being marketed is an understatement. :'(

IrishGoat outside of Dublin so where are these cans of metalman for 2.50 euro becaause i have looked around here and can't find them ? :o

Quote from: Bock on January 30, 2015, 10:37:14 AM
Six Point Belngali Tiger 355ml, 6% abv, hoppy as fook, €2.45 in the bar!

See now there ye go that is a can that is worth paying that kind of money for. ;D

Who has them four for a tenner in Dublin city?

Quote from: phoenix on January 30, 2015, 10:49:48 AM
Who has them four for a tenner in Dublin city?

I just thought Goat was referring to Dublin is all since they seem to be 3 euro plus everywhere else. ;D

Quote from: phoenix on January 30, 2015, 10:49:48 AM
Who has them four for a tenner in Dublin city?

Martins in Fairview is doing 4 for a tenner.
Drinkstore is about €2.52 with Beoir discount.

However Martins also has these 4 for a tenner and can mix them all
http://www.martinsofflicence.ie/craft-beer-cans-mix-match-4-for-10.00/

Quote from: Greg2013 on January 30, 2015, 10:40:50 AMI have a can of this in the fridge chilling and it cost me near 4 euro in World Of Wines near WRH,a right fooking rip off but i love the beer,have had it on tap,so said sure why not.To each their own guys but you simply cannot justify that kind of pricing for any beer that is shall we say"not special"(figure of speech there).

If i am near a tap serving it i will get a pint but i won't ever be buying it again off the shelf as long as they price it like that,the brewery has a huge part to play in setting the RRP and to say i am disappointed in how this is being marketed is an understatement. :'(

IrishGoat outside of Dublin so where are these cans of metalman for 2.50 euro becaause i have looked around here and can't find them ? :o

€4 is taking the piss although if people pay that price the shop would have no reason to lower the price.

Ferrybank Beer Club and Ardkeen Food store are doing it 4 for a tenner. It's also apparently €2.40 in Carry Out, Tyrellstown

Quote from: irish_goat on January 30, 2015, 11:50:06 AM

Quote from: Greg2013 on January 30, 2015, 10:40:50 AMI have a can of this in the fridge chilling and it cost me near 4 euro in World Of Wines near WRH,a right fooking rip off but i love the beer,have had it on tap,so said sure why not.To each their own guys but you simply cannot justify that kind of pricing for any beer that is shall we say"not special"(figure of speech there).

If i am near a tap serving it i will get a pint but i won't ever be buying it again off the shelf as long as they price it like that,the brewery has a huge part to play in setting the RRP and to say i am disappointed in how this is being marketed is an understatement. :'(

IrishGoat outside of Dublin so where are these cans of metalman for 2.50 euro becaause i have looked around here and can't find them ? :o

€4 is taking the piss although if people pay that price the shop would have no reason to lower the price.

Ferrybank Beer Club and Ardkeen Food store are doing it 4 for a tenner. It's also apparently €2.40 in Carry Out, Tyrellstown

Had an appt in WRH was the only reason i stopped in and  yes i agree however it was a once off for me in this case seeing as it is a local brewery,plus i can't often get to Waterford unless i have an appt so i never see most of these beers anyway,i was in Ardkeen shopping centre but can't say i saw any in there but good to know for next time thank you. ;D

Quote from: Greg2013 on January 30, 2015, 10:40:50 AM

Quote from: irish_goat on January 30, 2015, 10:31:00 AM
To be fair, you can get the Metalman cans for 4 for €10, which brings the price down to about €7.50 a litre. Still quite high but I won't mind paying it the odd time for the handiness of cans. If I was having a bit of a session in the house though I'd probably stick to the better value 500mls.

I have a can of this in the fridge chilling and it cost me near 4 euro in World Of Wines near WRH,a right fooking rip off but i love the beer,have had it on tap,so said sure why not.To each their own guys but you simply cannot justify that kind of pricing for any beer that is shall we say"not special"(figure of speech there).

If i am near a tap serving it i will get a pint but i won't ever be buying it again off the shelf as long as they price it like that,the brewery has a huge part to play in setting the RRP and to say i am disappointed in how this is being marketed is an understatement. :'(

IrishGoat outside of Dublin so where are these cans of metalman for 2.50 euro becaause i have looked around here and can't find them ? :o

I frequent 2 off licenses in Wicklow regularly, both have the deal.

Anyway feck it. Sure we can all make our own beer for about $0.50 a pint or less.

Blackrock Cellar have  them in for 4 for 10 euro.  Also have founders cans and brewdog for the same price. 

The problem is there simply is not anywhere outside of Waterford for me to get these beers lads,i want to do a review of the Metalman in a can is the main reason i got it,unfortunately good offies that stock craft beer in Waterford are few and far between IMO. ;D

Quote from: Qs on January 30, 2015, 01:02:04 PM
Anyway feck it. Sure we can all make our own beer for about $0.50 a pint or less.

Exactly :P

Quote from: Greg2013 on January 30, 2015, 06:29:10 PM
The problem is there simply is not anywhere outside of Waterford for me to get these beers lads,i want to do a review of the Metalman in a can is the main reason i got it,unfortunately good offies that stock craft beer in Waterford are few and far between IMO. ;D

Quote from: Qs on January 30, 2015, 01:02:04 PM
Anyway feck it. Sure we can all make our own beer for about $0.50 a pint or less.

Exactly

Check out the metalman page on Twitter and Facebook, they have a list of places stocking it. The offie in ferrybank has it afaik (beer club or something?!), watch out for the ferrybank punks though, they'll get ya

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=591838327541159

Quote from: googoomuck on January 30, 2015, 07:22:05 PM

Quote from: Greg2013 on January 30, 2015, 06:29:10 PM
The problem is there simply is not anywhere outside of Waterford for me to get these beers lads,i want to do a review of the Metalman in a can is the main reason i got it,unfortunately good offies that stock craft beer in Waterford are few and far between IMO. ;D

Quote from: Qs on January 30, 2015, 01:02:04 PM
Anyway feck it. Sure we can all make our own beer for about $0.50 a pint or less.

Exactly

Check out the metalman page on Twitter and Facebook, they have a list of places stocking it. The offie in ferrybank has it afaik (beer club or something?!), watch out for the ferrybank punks though, they'll get ya

I'd rather take my chances in Baghdad  ;D :P

Tell ya what lads will we head on down to the Roxy, I heard they have a Hoffman's promotion on this weekend.

Quote from: googoomuck on January 30, 2015, 09:04:46 PM
Tell ya what lads will we head on down to the Roxy, I heard they have a Hoffman's promotion on this weekend.

Where are ye going to park the caravans ? :P

Up the back of the yellow house, have a few young lads keeping an eye on them.

Some spot in its day, many a good night in there. Following bands with your mates. Sir Henry's was another great spot for gigs.

I'm really glad that people are starting to talk about price. It is the noose that almost all small  breweries are going to find themselves hanging from. There seems to be a belief that using the term 'craft' bestows the right to charge exorbitant prices in Ireland. Not so in the UK where, in Wetherspoons a micro brewery beer can sell for as little as £1.75. We suffer from, possibly, an inherent greed and snobbery when it comes to anything that's good and worthwhile. This drives the average consumer back into the arms of the conglomerates again. It pisses me off...big time!😠

Quote from: heeler58 on February 17, 2015, 05:50:43 PM
I'm really glad that people are starting to talk about price. It is the noose that almost all small  breweries are going to find themselves hanging from. There seems to be a belief that using the term 'craft' bestows the right to charge exorbitant prices in Ireland. Not so in the UK where, in Wetherspoons a micro brewery beer can sell for as little as £1.75. We suffer from, possibly, an inherent greed and snobbery when it comes to anything that's good and worthwhile. This drives the average consumer back into the arms of the conglomerates again. It pisses me off...big time!😠

Agree in principle.

However, I don't think that's what's happening with Metalman.
Their pale ale is one of the few properly hoppy APAs made in Ireland (imho); cans are a hop-friendly package and they're stamped with short expiry dates.
For a superior product with guaranteed freshness, I'll pay a premium.

Quote from: heeler58 on February 17, 2015, 05:50:43 PM
I'm really glad that people are starting to talk about price. It is the noose that almost all small  breweries are going to find themselves hanging from. There seems to be a belief that using the term 'craft' bestows the right to charge exorbitant prices in Ireland. Not so in the UK where, in Wetherspoons a micro brewery beer can sell for as little as £1.75. We suffer from, possibly, an inherent greed and snobbery when it comes to anything that's good and worthwhile. This drives the average consumer back into the arms of the conglomerates again. It pisses me off...big time!

thats not really comparing like with like either.  wetherspoons here charges €2 - €2.50 for most beers, thats more down to their buying power.
you really need to compare random off-licence price in ireland with random off-licence price in the uk.

For reference, prices in Derry's only craft offy.

Galway Hooker 500ml - £2.99/€4.06
Kinnegar 500ml - £2.99/€4.06
O'Hara's 500ml - £2.29/€3.11
William Bros 500ml - £2.29/€3.11
Punk 330ml - £2.29/€3.11

Quote from: beerfly on February 18, 2015, 01:26:36 PM

Quote from: heeler58 on February 17, 2015, 05:50:43 PM
I'm really glad that people are starting to talk about price. It is the noose that almost all small  breweries are going to find themselves hanging from. There seems to be a belief that using the term 'craft' bestows the right to charge exorbitant prices in Ireland. Not so in the UK where, in Wetherspoons a micro brewery beer can sell for as little as £1.75. We suffer from, possibly, an inherent greed and snobbery when it comes to anything that's good and worthwhile. This drives the average consumer back into the arms of the conglomerates again. It pisses me off...big time!

thats not really comparing like with like either.  wetherspoons here charges €2 - €2.50 for most beers, thats more down to their buying power.
you really need to compare random off-licence price in ireland with random off-licence price in the uk.

Have to agree here,you need to comapre like with like to get a fair comparison.

Quote from: irish_goat on February 18, 2015, 01:36:20 PM
For reference, prices in Derry's only craft offy.

Galway Hooker 500ml - £2.99/€4.06
Kinnegar 500ml - £2.99/€4.06
O'Hara's 500ml - £2.29/€3.11
William Bros 500ml - £2.29/€3.11
Punk 330ml - £2.29/€3.11

Those prices are taking the piss IMHO,4.00 euro for 500ml of any Irish or UK craft beer is too much especially in an off licence,unless of course it is a "special" beer such as a belgian strong ale or even an RIS. IMHO 3.00 euro is the very most you should have to pay for 500ml of any Irish craft beer in order to keep it accessable to the general public,otherwise it will be seen and thought of as elitist and we are trying to get away from that after all. ;D

I don't really think that's taking the piss tbh. The euro is weak as shit right now. It's always going to look more expensive. when I was working in England, getting paid in Stirling I thought beer was cheap as chips.

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 18, 2015, 06:55:20 PMIMHO 3.00 euro is the very most you should have to pay for 500ml of any Irish craft beer in order to keep it accessable to the general public,otherwise it will be seen and thought of as elitist and we are trying to get away from that after all. ;D

€3 for 500mls? I need to shop where you shop.

from drinkstore.ie; all 5% ABV or less:

Black Donkey Sheep Stealer - €3.90
Bo Bristle IPA - €3.70
Brehon Blonde - €3.70
Independent Red - €3.50
Cody's Blackjack Cream Stout - €3.70
Munster Blackguard Lager - €3.70
Reel Deal Irish Blond - €3.70

Quote from: SlugTrap on February 19, 2015, 11:18:21 AM

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 18, 2015, 06:55:20 PMIMHO 3.00 euro is the very most you should have to pay for 500ml of any Irish craft beer in order to keep it accessable to the general public,otherwise it will be seen and thought of as elitist and we are trying to get away from that after all. ;D

€3 for 500mls? I need to shop where you shop.

from drinkstore.ie; all 5% ABV or less:

Black Donkey Sheep Stealer - €3.90
Bo Bristle IPA - €3.70
Brehon Blonde - €3.70
Independent Red - €3.50
Cody's Blackjack Cream Stout - €3.70
Munster Blackguard Lager - €3.70
Reel Deal Irish Blond - €3.70

I said 3.00 euro is the most you should have to pay not the most that i pay,for that reason i wouldn't buy any of those beers at those prices. ;D

Christ on a bike you couldn't possibly have picked a place more expensive than an online retailer like drinkstore,try an offie m8.  :o

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 19, 2015, 02:44:34 PM
Christ on a bike you couldn't possibly have picked a place more expensive than an online retailer like drinkstore,try an offie m8.  :o

Drinkstore is the closest offie to work for me (and most people who work Northside Dublin City Centre) - brick and mortar shop on Manor St in Stoneybatter.
You might save 20 or 30 cents by going to McHugh's or Redmond's but, by the same token, Kelly's Mountain and Blackstairs (to name two) are routinely €4 a bottle.

€3 is your limit? You must drink a lot of O'Hara's...

Are the O'Shea's in Aldi sub-€2? Not the most amazing of beers but they're handy for keeping the fridge stocked without breaking the bank.

Quote from: SlugTrap on February 19, 2015, 03:33:30 PM

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 19, 2015, 02:44:34 PM
Christ on a bike you couldn't possibly have picked a place more expensive than an online retailer like drinkstore,try an offie m8.  :o

Drinkstore is the closest offie to work for me (and most people who work Northside Dublin City Centre) - brick and mortar shop on Manor St in Stoneybatter.
You might save 20 or 30 cents by going to McHugh's or Redmond's but, by the same token, Kelly's Mountain and Blackstairs (to name two) are routinely €4 a bottle.

€3 is your limit? You must drink a lot of O'Hara's...

I don't because i won't pay it,imo they are not worth it except for the Leann Follain.I simply won't participate or encourage the overpricing debacle on craft beer that imo we are subjected to in Ireland,i might buy a beer once to try but that's it,if it's below a certain standard or above a certain price i will leave it on the shelf no matter how good it is,for the same reason every time i go into Dunnes and see Theakston Old Peculier(my own personal numero uno macro beer) i sigh and leave it there as it is always above 3.00 euro a bottle and i refuse to pay that for a macro beer much less craft. ;)

The only possible exception i make is for Dungarvan Brewery beers which are always above 3.00 euro a bottle too but they are my local brewery and i know Cormac well enough so i like to show my support when i can. ;D

Quote from: irish_goat on February 19, 2015, 03:45:20 PM
Are the O'Shea's in Aldi sub-€2? Not the most amazing of beers but they're handy for keeping the fridge stocked without breaking the bank.

Afaik they are around 2.09 euro or something,basically a weaker verssion of O'Hara's but yes not bad at all,their amber ale and red ale i particularily like, i also quite like a bottle of Old Speckled Hen also at 2.09 euro. ;D

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 19, 2015, 02:44:34 PM
Christ on a bike you couldn't possibly have picked a place more expensive than an online retailer like drinkstore,try an offie m8.  :o

Drinkstore is probably the best value offie in the Rep of Ireland. Id bet its cheaper than any other offie in Dublin & most of their beers are 50 to 70c cheaper than the best offie here in Galway. 

My local offie went online recently, craftbier.ie

I've never shopped on drinkstore so I don't know how it compares

Hollands in Bray is pretty good for price compared to a lot of places.

Quote from: SlugTrap on February 19, 2015, 03:33:30 PM

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 19, 2015, 02:44:34 PM
Christ on a bike you couldn't possibly have picked a place more expensive than an online retailer like drinkstore,try an offie m8.  :o

Drinkstore is the closest offie to work for me (and most people who work Northside Dublin City Centre) - brick and mortar shop on Manor St in Stoneybatter.
You might save 20 or 30 cents by going to McHugh's or Redmond's but, by the same token, Kelly's Mountain and Blackstairs (to name two) are routinely €4 a bottle.

€3 is your limit? You must drink a lot of O'Hara's...

20 or 30 cent? If you go to McGraths in Drumcondra its any three of the O'Haras, Galway Bay and one other brewer for E9.


For those wondering the prices in Aldi it's E1.89 for the O'Sheas Red/Pale Ale and E1.99 for the Stout and they do Schofferhofer Wheat for E1.79.

Lidl have a bottle-conditioned Franzikaner 'mit natur trub' for E1.99

Ye do realise that none of ye have mentioned anywhere outside of Dublin yet ? No offence but not really a fair comparison to keep it in the pale  ;)

Quote from: チューブ on February 20, 2015, 11:45:35 AM
Nationwide delivery. In fact with drinkstore you're better off doing your order online because the shop itself is mayhem.

I have tried the site before but for instance when doing a small order like say 6 bottles by time you add on delivery it gets quite expensive,it may be cheap compared to Dublin prices but not cheap for us down South. ;D

I've never used one of the online offies. What courier do drinkstore use?

Quote from: チューブ on February 20, 2015, 12:24:21 PM
The usual suspects I think, Fastway or DPD.

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 20, 2015, 12:15:33 PM
I have tried the site before but for instance when doing a small order like say 6 bottles by time you add on delivery it gets quite expensive,it may be cheap compared to Dublin prices but not cheap for us down South. ;D

Well it's the same here. I order online from McHugh's as it's too far otherwise. I'll do a big order to level out the delivery cost.

I hear you but my point was the likes of drinkstore only works out cheap if you are doing a big order,if you only want a six pack then it is quiet expensive,good if it is a hard to get beer but not what i would call and evreyday offie tbh as it works out too dear. ;D

Drinkstore is the same if not cheaper then most off licenses in Dublin. O'Briens are pretty expensive. €6.30 for foam and fury?!

Quote from: チューブ on February 20, 2015, 01:19:09 PM
I haven't been to it but that Worldwide Wines (I think that's the name) in Waterford is supposed to be fairly good, though I can't find any gueuze on it. That might mean there's no gueuze in the whole county.  :o

I have been there and they do have a pretty good selection but for instance their 330ml MM cans were well over 3.00euro when i bought one there a couple weeks ago.Next time i am down in a week or two i will have a look for a Geuze for ya  ;D

Quote from: winstonia on February 20, 2015, 01:32:22 PM
Drinkstore is the same if not cheaper then most off licenses in Dublin. O'Briens are pretty expensive. €6.30 for foam and fury?!

Again Dublin prices not so much elsewhere in the country. ;D

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 19, 2015, 05:10:56 PMI simply won't participate or encourage the overpricing debacle on craft beer that imo we are subjected to in Ireland,

I couldn't disagree more.

Heineken, who have every industrial, distribution, and marketing advantage in the world, price their 500ml cans at €2.19 at a supermarket.
If €3 is your limit, are you honestly saying that a small business, who has no economies of scale and no advertising yet is making a superior product, should only price their beer at 80 cents more than a tasteless big corporate lager?

There were some new breweries in 2014 with QC problems who charged €4 a bottle for beer that was downright bad - they did craft beer no favours.
And I could understand not buying alcohol retail at all and sticking to homebrew because of this country's ridiculous tax schemes.
But it's not craft beer that's overpriced, it's alcohol in Ireland overall; putting unrealistic pricing expectations on small breweries damages both the scene and the breweries themselves.

</rant>

6 cans of Beavertown's new IPA costs £18 from a UK off license. That is €25 at today's exchange so I don't think high prices are just an Irish thing.

Quote from: SlugTrap on February 20, 2015, 03:42:17 PM

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 19, 2015, 05:10:56 PMI simply won't participate or encourage the overpricing debacle on craft beer that imo we are subjected to in Ireland,

I couldn't disagree more.

Heineken, who have every industrial, distribution, and marketing advantage in the world, price their 500ml cans at €2.19 at a supermarket.
If €3 is your limit, are you honestly saying that a small business, who has no economies of scale and no advertising yet is making a superior product, should only price their beer at 80 cents more than a tasteless big corporate lager?

There were some new breweries in 2014 with QC problems who charged €4 a bottle for beer that was downright bad - they did craft beer no favours.
And I could understand not buying alcohol retail at all and sticking to homebrew because of this country's ridiculous tax schemes.
But it's not craft beer that's overpriced, it's alcohol in Ireland overall; putting unrealistic pricing expectations on small breweries damages both the scene and the breweries themselves.

</rant>

Good point - also a lot of supermarkets have been selling boxes/slabs of lagers at below cost price, which exaggerates the price difference between macro and craft beers. Didn't they bring in legislation banning this a few days ago? Could even things up a bit and give a more balanced perspective

Quote from: heeler58 on February 17, 2015, 05:50:43 PM
. Not so in the UK where, in Wetherspoons a micro brewery beer can sell for as little as £1.75.

No micro beer will sell in spoons for that money unless they are being liquidated.

You might get that price for a regional breweries cheapest beer way outside the affluent centres.

Real ale in the uk is a product that is manufactured very cost effectively, to mass markets.

Hoppy American pale ales, not so much

I was not saying it was just "craft" beer that was overpriced,it is everything across the board,that said "craft" beer is overpriced more than macro IMHO.Every consumer's opinion on what is a fair price is different and entirely subjective and individual,however IMHO anything above 3.00 euro/500ml(from a supermarket or large offlicence) is too much for any beer unless it is some sort of special brew like an RIS or a Belgian Strong(think Rochefort 8). ;D

These are my opinions and are only being expressed here in that capacity.Bare in mind i am not saying any particular beer is bad or anything like that,just that they charge too much in certain cases,whoever is the one that charges too much i have no clue,by the same token whatever a "craft" brewer has to go through as opposed to what a macro brewery has to go through to produce a batch of beer at the end of the day the first thing i see is what price is it on the shelf. :o

Quote from: SlugTrap on February 20, 2015, 03:42:17 PM
Heineken, who have every industrial, distribution, and marketing advantage in the world, price their 500ml cans at €2.19 at a supermarket.
If €3 is your limit, are you honestly saying that a small business, who has no economies of scale and no advertising yet is making a superior product, should only price their beer at 80 cents more than a tasteless big corporate lager?
</rant>

For what it's worth I'd have thought that advertising was a cost, rather than something that would make your product cheaper per se. Heineken is marketed as a premium i.e. higher cost product and it's a lager to boot. A can of Beamish is 1.89 in Tesco right now.

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 20, 2015, 05:06:43 PMEvery consumer's opinion on what is a fair price is different and entirely subjective and individual,however IMHO anything above 3.00 euro/500ml(from a supermarket or large offlicence) is too much for any beer unless it is some sort of special brew like an RIS or a Belgian Strong(think Rochefort 8). ;D

Sure, everyone has their own sense of what it's fair to pay.
But I was in Redmond's yesterday and took the time to notice the pricing with this thread in mind: everything crafty, from high gravity Trappists to British real ales to American hop bombs, was €3 and up. It just seems to be the entry point for craft beer.
So I'd be genuinely curious what you end up drinking.

Quote from: mr hoppy on February 20, 2015, 09:33:23 PM
For what it's worth I'd have thought that advertising was a cost, rather than something that would make your product cheaper per se. Heineken is marketed as a premium i.e. higher cost product and it's a lager to boot. A can of Beamish is 1.89 in Tesco right now.

It's a cost that pays for itself and then some. Advertising = more sales = more cash. Otherwise, why bother?

Beamish is still made by Heineken with all their financial advantages but is marketed as a budget product. If consumers can handle a 15-20% swing in price from the same manufacturer just based on how a product is positioned, why is it hard to swallow a jump in cost for something tastier made with better ingredients (i.e. craft)?

Well atm Slugg just my own homebrew since prices on all beer seem to have shot up this year so far,jaysus i was in Dunnes today and Wells Banana Bread beer was 3.50/500ml  :o,that is just one example but all the more major UK macro ales now seem to be getting priced the same as "craft" beer it's bloody crazy,and then on the Irish side a 330ml bottle of Fran Well was nearly fecking 4.00 euro,i mean cmon now that is taking the mick a bit even for Ireland. ???

While I'd fundamentally disagree with the "because I'm worth it" argument - and by extension the whole idea of "craft" beer - I'd accept there's another side to this debate - starting at 5.50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOa0IryJ8oI

Quote from: mr hoppy on February 22, 2015, 08:36:38 PM
While I'd fundamentally disagree with the "because I'm worth it" argument - and by extension the whole idea of "craft" beer - I'd accept there's another side to this debate - starting at 5.50

That other side shown in the video is a tied house thing, not a brewing thing.

I'm intrigued, though, to hear how you disagree with the idea of craft beer...

1.89 for cans of Metalman in super value today. I'd call that a good price.

Quote from: brian_c on February 22, 2015, 11:49:47 PM
1.89 for cans of Metalman in super value today. I'd call that a good price.

See that is a proper price for a 330ml can of craft beer,pity MM is not for sale in Dungarvan SV  :'(

Raheny.

Quote from: SlugTrap on February 22, 2015, 11:38:36 PM
That other side shown in the video is a tied house thing, not a brewing thing.

I don't think the video mentions it specifically but SS is famous for its cheap beer - the price of a pint of bitter in their tied houses hasn't gone up by much in decades. What I hadn't realized is that - to do this - they've shafted their landlords.

What I take from this is there's no such thing as a free lunch and it's wishful thinking to imagine you can get a product for less than it can be sold for profitably, at least not for long. I'd imagine servicing the capital cost of the canning machine had a bearing on the pricing of Metalman's cans.

Quote
I'm intrigued, though, to hear how you disagree with the idea of craft beer...

When I started drinking what's now called craft beer it was sold in microbreweries, or as "world beer". I'd view "craft beer" as an elastic marketing concept: and like anything terms like "craft" or "artisanal" are applied to ultimately it works to allow sellers to command a super premium price - in some cases on products that heretofore had been considered unremarkable, and in other cases - as you've acknowledged - on pretty poor offerings.

Quote from: mr hoppy on February 23, 2015, 09:42:26 AM
What I take from this is there's no such thing as a free lunch and it's wishful thinking to imagine you can get a product for less than it can be sold for profitably, at least not for long. I'd imagine servicing the capital cost of the canning machine had a bearing on the pricing of Metalman's cans.

I think we're violently agreeing.
Nobody blinks at Heineken setting their prices to gain them €1.36bn in profits (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304703804579378091179629968), but a small brewer looking just to stay afloat is somehow charging a fortune.
The canning line was six figures, I'm sure, so yes, it needs to be paid for.

Quote from: mr hoppy on February 23, 2015, 09:42:26 AM
When I started drinking what's now called craft beer it was sold in microbreweries, or as "world beer". I'd view "craft beer" as an elastic marketing concept: and like anything terms like "craft" or "artisanal" are applied to ultimately it works to allow sellers to command a super premium price - in some cases on products that heretofore had been considered unremarkable, and in other cases - as you've acknowledged - on pretty poor offerings.

Yup, I date to the micro boom in the 90s myself - $2.50 a bottle in bars back when Bud longnecks were $1.25.
There's been a lot of back and forth over the definition of "craft" but to me it's only useful when it's simple: quality first.
Craft breweries are entitled to a higher price if they're providing a superior product; where that falls apart (and where I quibble with Beoir) is when nobody is holding them accountable for bad beer.

Mr Hoppy and  Slugg of course i agree the canning machine has to be paid for,even i realise that,i also realise that once MM is sold wholesalers etc it is out of brewery's hands at that stage re what price is charged to a large degree. ;D

Now all that said if MM was sold for 2.25 euro or something a 330ml can i would not object,it is local and a good beer(though not what it used to be IMHO) and well capital improvement costs must be paid for etc. ,however there is a point where it is taking the mickey and we are being robbed blind,and again i am sorry but those people that are  excusing these high prices are only helping to perpetuate this price gouging. Here is my beer pricing list  and is only my own personal opinions;

1)Beer so bad that i would not feed it to a pig,beers in this class vary from high to low price range and this is probably one of the broadest of all the beer classes,pass by asap.

2) Budget own brand beer,think beer like say Aldi/Lidl own brand(O'Sheas golden ale smashing beer),often brewed by a bigger brewery for the chain store and so can be quite passable or even in some cases surprisingly good.Beers in this category should be no more than 1.50 euro per 500ml but occasional acceptions for the likes of O'Sheas@1.89euro can be made when warranted.

3)Budget beer in general,this is any budget  beer not brewed specifically  as an in house chain store brand,this would include Budweiser,Coors etc., beers in this category should be no more than 1.50-1.80 per 500ml.

4a)This beer category is the hardest to define for me since it varys all the way from Wells Banana Bread beer(uck) to Theakston Old Peculier(numero uno imo),to Fran Well to the scary scarecrow Irish brewery name escapes (atm).This is the category i dare say most if not all of us do 99% of our beer shopping in,it goes from craft beer to crafty beer to the better macros like say Sam Adams bostin lager or Dog Fish Head beers.Beers in this category i would drink 99.99% of them,they should be no more than 2.00-2.50 euro per 500ml. ;D

4b)This is part of the group just above it here but the second part would be true "craft" beers say like White Gypsy(man i had a RIS from them  before was like 9.00 a bottle but soo worth it).The likes of Wells would go in section above and the likes of MM would go here,this is the sub category i would put all Irish "craft" breweries that i have tried so far into.There are certain Irish breweries calling themselves "craft" that i do not consider to be and i reckon should go in 4a) above at best(a whole other discussion lol),beers in this category should be no more than 2.50-2.80 per 500ml(gets a bit hairy trying to price beers at this stage). ;D

5) Special Beers,beers in this category would be the likes of the Rochefort lineup or the Westleveren lineup(can never spell that one either),i think we all know the beers that fit into this group,beers in this category are open ended price wise as they are unique and mostly a one off buy for me.There are currently no micro/macro breweries Irish or foreign that i have tried or know of that i would consider fall into this speciality category,beers in this category should be no more than your left testicle per 500ml but you could go as high as an arm for a truly exceptional brew. ;D

Oh btw guys i love ye all but please stop quoting Dublin prices and the convenience of these online retailers to Dublin folk as they are irrelevant in comparison to the rest of the country,it is well known Dublin pricing/convenience on anything is in another dimension so totally unfair comparison IMHO,not that i have anything against the Dubs after all i was born there :o

Guys i don't go around with the above list in my head all the time,it was simply to point out how i view purchasing beer in my local off licence or supermarket or wherever.I thought i was giving the impression that i was saying that MM were robbing b###ards,i wasn't saying that at all.What i was trying to put across is the vendors selling the likes of MM for more than 3.00 per 330ml can are robbing b###ards IMHO. ;D

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 23, 2015, 01:33:57 PM
5) Special Beers,beers in this category would be the likes of the Rochefort lineup or the Westleveren lineup(can never spell that one either),i think we all know the beers that fit into this group,beers in this category are open ended price wise as they are unique and mostly a one off buy for me.There are currently no micro/macro breweries Irish or foreign that i have tried or know of that i would consider fall into this speciality category,beers in this category should be no more than your left testicle per 500ml but you could go as high as an arm for a truly exceptional brew. ;D

The pricing for Rochefort is a major hobby horse of mine. Talk about "quality ingredients" - it's made with a hearty helping of maize flour, and basically table sugar. So's Westvleteren - the feckin monastery is surrounded by maize fields for miles.

Quote from: mr hoppy on February 23, 2015, 02:00:32 PM

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 23, 2015, 01:33:57 PM
5) Special Beers,beers in this category would be the likes of the Rochefort lineup or the Westleveren lineup(can never spell that one either),i think we all know the beers that fit into this group,beers in this category are open ended price wise as they are unique and mostly a one off buy for me.There are currently no micro/macro breweries Irish or foreign that i have tried or know of that i would consider fall into this speciality category,beers in this category should be no more than your left testicle per 500ml but you could go as high as an arm for a truly exceptional brew. ;D

The pricing for Rochefort is a major hobby horse of mine. Talk about "quality ingredients" - it's made with a hearty helping of maize flour, and basically table sugar. So's Westvleteren - the feckin monastery is surrounded by maize fields for miles.

I have no objection to anyone using Maize in a beer so long as i am made aware of  it and the extent of its use in said brew,and tbh these beers are so highly priced anyway they are never going to be a daily supping pint. ;D

However i will concede that even for special beers Westie and Rochefort are greatly overpriced IMHO as well so i agree with you on that point. ;D

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 23, 2015, 01:33:57 PM

4a)This beer category is the hardest to define for me since it varys all the way from Wells Banana Bread beer(uck) to Theakston Old Peculier(numero uno imo),to Fran Well to the scary scarecrow Irish brewery name escapes (atm).This is the category i dare say most if not all of us do 99% of our beer shopping in,it goes from craft beer to crafty beer to the better macros like say Sam Adams bostin lager or Dog Fish Head beers.Beers in this category i would drink 99.99% of them,they should be no more than 2.00-2.50 euro per 500ml. ;D

4b)This is part of the group just above it here but the second part would be true "craft" beers say like White Gypsy(man i had a RIS from them  before was like 9.00 a bottle but soo worth it).The likes of Wells would go in section above and the likes of MM would go here,this is the sub category i would put all Irish "craft" breweries that i have tried so far into.There are certain Irish breweries calling themselves "craft" that i do not consider to be and i reckon should go in 4a) above at best(a whole other discussion lol),beers in this category should be no more than 2.50-2.80 per 500ml(gets a bit hairy trying to price beers at this stage). ;D

A couple of interesting things about the above:

1. You're only allowing a 30 cent swing between medium-sized - what we call in the States "regional" - breweries and small ones?
Fran Well is MolsonCoors now, Sam Adams is the biggest in the US by a hefty margin (triple the output of next nearest: Sierra Nevada,) Theakstons is 16th in the UK by market share....these guys can crush small breweries on pricing.
I've made the point with the Heineken examples but it bears repeating: all things being equal, if there's only 30 cents difference between a bigger brewery's beer and a small one's, it's not the small brewery who's trying to screw you...

2. Funny you should mention Dogfish Head, because that's the perfectly wrong example.
Sam Calagione was the one who started all of this 15 years ago when he began charging $16 for a four-pack.
People freaked out in the US, but his attitude was, "$16 gets you a fair to middling wine and you're glad to pay it, so why won't you pay the same prive for twice the volume of world class beer?" (And for the likes of Palo Santo Marrone, he's not wrong about it being world class.)

Sound logic that, to me, has suffered diminishing returns:
Thornbridge was the first brewery I remember doing it in the UK at £3 a bottle, with some justification, but now we see non-limited releases from certain Irish breweries pricing out at €6 or €7 a pint.

Remember the part where i said these were my opinions ? ;)

As to Dogfish Head etc i consider them macro breweries not craft breweries and as such i think it is perfect example in that context,i didn't want to get into that on this post but there it is. Tbh i don't actually see what point you are trying to drive home with your last reply but i would appreciate if maybe you could explain where you are coming from.

Anyway i wasn't looking for my points above to stack up against statistics that is not what they are for,they are simply put my personal views and how i shop when buying beer and why i have a price point above which i call shenanigans.At the end of the day all i see is what price it is on the shelf,the size or output of the brewery or who it is that is hiking up the price along the chain of supply is irrelevant to me.

And if Thornbridge are £3 a bottle they can stay on the shelf too as i would consider that robbery for a macro brewery. ;D

There was a home-brew fermented with some Palo Santo wood at a Lee Valley meet up last year. Very nice and very unusual flavor.

I had a can of Metalman today - not bad at all.
In fact at 330ml its the perfect school night commercial beer.

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 23, 2015, 08:31:40 PM
As to Dogfish Head etc i consider them macro breweries not craft breweries and as such i think it is perfect example in that context,i didn't want to get into that on this post but there it is. Tbh i don't actually see what point you are trying to drive home with your last reply but i would appreciate if maybe you could explain where you are coming from.

My 1st point: Better beer is worth paying more for.

Plenty of lesser breweries have blurred the lines, yes, and there is plenty of beer now that is not worth the price tag - I basically won't even look at Irish beers in large format bottles.
Fundamentally, though, higher quality demands more cash - whether it's beer or anything else.

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 23, 2015, 08:31:40 PM
Anyway i wasn't looking for my points above to stack up against statistics that is not what they are for,they are simply put my personal views and how i shop when buying beer and why i have a price point above which i call shenanigans.At the end of the day all i see is what price it is on the shelf,the size or output of the brewery or who it is that is hiking up the price along the chain of supply is irrelevant to me.

My 2nd point: Craft breweries are not to blame for how expensive beer is in Ireland.

You said "There is a point where it is taking the mickey and we are being robbed blind" - OK, but who's doing the robbing?
Corporate brewery markups and government taxes set the market long before there was any craft beer in Ireland.

Quote from: Greg2013 on February 23, 2015, 08:31:40 PM
And if Thornbridge are £3 a bottle they can stay on the shelf too as i would consider that robbery for a macro brewery. ;D

For Otto, I agree; for Wild Raven, I think it's fair.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, all this is nothing personal (I don't even know you!) and spend your money however you like, of course. :)

I've just gotten really tired of hearing (warning:Dublin prices) some people say, "I'm not paying €5.50 for a pint of some craft beer!" and then going back to their €5 pint of Carlsberg.

No worries boss  ;D

I never said craft breweries were to blame for how expensive beer is in Ireland. As to who is doing the robbing as in my last reply i really don't care who it is,the price on the shelf is all i care about at the end of the day.

"My 1st point: Better beer is worth paying more for." So where do you draw the line ? I agree with this statement but to me i have a limit above which i will not go because i believe that as good as a beer may be there is a point at which it is simply price gouging.

"My 2nd point: Craft breweries are not to blame for how expensive beer is in Ireland." As above i never said they were,to clarify even further i don't believe they are totally to blame but i do believe some of them are at least partly to blame by playing into punters desires and taking them for what they can while they can.

"I've just gotten really tired of hearing (warning:Dublin prices) some people say, "I'm not paying €5.50 for a pint of some craft beer!" and then going back to their €5 pint of Carlsberg." So funny i actually agree 100% with this sentiment,or the one where they say "that craft beer sure God only knows what they put into that" but yet they will not question what goes into a pint of macro sigh. ;D

I love "craft" beer or any good decent beer,i think what has happened in my case is that the few gougers out there producing mediocre beer and selling at a premium have poisoned my attitude across the board to the point now where i treat them all with a healthy dose of disdain,maybe the 3.00 euro self imposed limit is unrealistic but it is driven as much by financial reasons as anything else,should things improve i have no doubt that limit will stretch it's legs somewhat. ;D

Dogfish Head does produce in macro quantities but I'd still refer to them as a craft brewer (craft meaning quality, not size). I'm don't know many macros that would go to the lengths Sam does to produce some of his brews

If you ever get a chance to watch the show  "Brew Masters" I'd strongly suggest it. It's a fascinating show. He pulls wild yeast from the fig trees close to the pyramids in Egypt to brew one of his ancient ales. In another they dump almost a million dollars of beer as it doesn't taste "quite right". Can't see InBev doing that

Quote from: Pheeel on February 25, 2015, 11:52:55 AM
Dogfish Head does produce in macro quantities but I'd still refer to them as a craft brewer (craft meaning quality, not size).

In 2013 they produced roughly 300,000 hl, about the same as Shepherd Neame, who are the largest independent UK brewery.
Last year, after an expansion, DFH's output should've been closer to 500,000 hl.

Craft beer semantics. Head hurts.

Quote from: Pheeel on February 25, 2015, 11:52:55 AM
Dogfish Head does produce in macro quantities but I'd still refer to them as a craft brewer (craft meaning quality, not size). I'm don't know many macros that would go to the lengths Sam does to produce some of his brews

If you ever get a chance to watch the show  "Brew Masters" I'd strongly suggest it. It's a fascinating show. He pulls wild yeast from the fig trees close to the pyramids in Egypt to brew one of his ancient ales. In another they dump almost a million dollars of beer as it doesn't taste "quite right". Can't see InBev doing that

I have actually seen that episode and while i am not disputing the quality of DFH beers i strongly dispute that they are anything other than a macro brewery at this point same as Brewdog,same as Sam Adams,same as Fran Well(Molson Coors now). ;D

Quote from: Tube on February 25, 2015, 07:37:06 PM

Quote from: SlugTrap on February 25, 2015, 03:40:11 PM
In 2013 they produced roughly 300,000 hl, about the same as Shepherd Neame, who are the largest independent UK brewery.

If by independent you mean not owned by a larger/parent company, is Fullers not bigger? (Just curious)

No and no.
Their output last year was about 330k hl, but some of that was cider and soft drinks, so they end up roughly the same as SN if not a bit behind.
Fullers also trade on the LSE, so it's open to debate whether they are truly "independent."

Tonight 28/02/2015 this is the kind of gouging by vendors that has me so restrictive on how much i am willing to pay for a beer off the shelves. >:(



http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=9056.msg112642#msg112642

Was in Dunnes in Bishopstown today. Fair few "craft" options below, or near 3 euros.