GCB Comp - American Amber (Scored 27) critique

[molc]

Heya,
Following on from Shiny's example, here is my recipe and scoresheets, as well as where I think I went wrong and questions. Beer was brewed about 1.5 months ago, so it was quite fresh. Btw, whoever judge 1 was, your feedback was excellent.

Scoresheets
http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/joctcl/media/GCB%20AA/Scan_20150523_22_zpswjzivonz.jpg.html?sort=3&o=9
http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/joctcl/media/GCB%20AA/Scan_20150523_21_zps1eh7vwyf.jpg.html?sort=3&o=11

Recipe
Style: American Amber Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 27.76 l
Post Boil Volume: 23.61 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 20.80 l   
Bottling Volume: 18.90 l
Estimated OG: 1.067 SG
Estimated Color: 35.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 65.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------

5.500 kg              Pale Malt (Weyermann) (6.5 EBC)          79.3 %       
0.450 kg              Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (78.8 EBC)    6.5 %         
0.450 kg              Munich Malt (17.7 EBC)                           6.5 %         
0.227 kg              Caraamber (Weyermann) (70.9 EBC)       3.3 %         
0.227 kg              Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC) 3.3 %         
0.085 kg              Pale Chocolate Malt (600.0 EBC)             1.2 %         
32.00 g               Horizon [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min            54.2 IBUs     
29.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min      4.5 IBUs     
24.00 g               Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min    6.8 IBUs     
29.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min        0.0 IBUs     
24.00 g               Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min     0.0 IBUs     
2.0 pkg               Safale American  (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)


Total Grain Weight: 6.939 kg
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 22.82 l of water at 73.6 C          67.0 C        60 min       

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 13.89l) of 76.0 C water
Notes:
Ferment: 19C, for 2 weeks.

Analysis
Both colour and hopping levels are too high for the style, as I wasn't thinking about a competition entry when I made this. I'll post an updated recipe in the next post that address that.

Questions
What I don't understand is where the vegetable flavour came from in the beer. The hops were bought recently from the HBC. Cooling was done with an IC over 30 minutes, though I think I did cover the BK while it was cooling, which may have led to some DMS getting back into the brew. Could it just be coming from the hopping level?
Some comments were made on the dryness, which isn't what I would want in this style. Would you think this is purely down to the hopping levels; i.e. with less hops, would it still have been too dry?

[molc]

Recipe Changes
Here's how I would change things if I was doing it again. Basically lowering the base malt and taking the pale chocolate out, as well as significantly lowering the hopping. A question here is what could I put in to give a real nutty/toasty flavour to the beer, without making it too dark, as that was why I used pale chocolate in the first place.

Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 26.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.0 IBUs

Ingredients:
------------
4.190 kg              Pale Malt (Weyermann) (6.5 EBC)            77.1 %       
0.450 kg              Munich Malt (17.7 EBC)                             8.3 %         
0.340 kg              Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (78.8 EBC)      6.3 %         
0.227 kg              Caraamber (Weyermann) (70.9 EBC)        4.2 %         
0.227 kg              Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC)  4.2 %         
17.00 g               Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min         29.6 IBUs     
10.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min            1.6 IBUs     
10.00 g               Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min        2.9 IBUs     
10.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min               0.0 IBUs     
10.00 g               Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min          0.0 IBUs     
1.0 pkg               Safale American  (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)

[Leann ull]

Munich and Biscuit will contribute to nutty flavours, but nutty is not an amber requirement

Flavor: Usually a moderate to high hop flavor, often showing a citrusy American hop character (although other hop varieties may be used). Low to moderately high clean malt character supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). The balance is typically towards the late hops and bitterness, but the malt presence can be substantial. Caramel flavors are usually restrained or absent. Fruity esters can be moderate to none. Moderate to high hop bitterness with a medium to dry finish. Hop flavor and bitterness often lingers into the finish. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy notes, although this character should not be excessive.

In a lot of instances people try to overcomplicate their recipes, miss the basics and its ends out a right mess with too much going on and not knowing how to fix it.

My own experience is to pick a style have a core solid recipe that I have seen posted or taken from literature, once I have brewed it once I know then I can go ahead and mod with, pineapple chunks etc   
It usually takes v3 or 4 before i get where I want, more accomplished brewers can do that step in 2 to 3 jumps.
In the meantime my mates get free basic beer.

[Qs]

What was the finishing gravity on the competition beer? Sounds great to me from the judges feedback but I can understand it was maybe too hoppy for competition.

[molc]

Finished a bit dry at 1.012(2 packets us a bit of an overpitch I guess) so say 7.5%. And yeah, nutty isn't required, was just something I was looking to try is all.
The vegetal off flavour is the bit I can't figure out and need to see how to fix.

[Qs]

Do you get the vegetable flavour yourself? Is it canned veg flavour or grassy hop derived veg flavour? Did you whirlpool the 0 minute additions for long? Dry hop?

I wouldn't call that an over pitch on the yeast either. Does overpitching even cause a beer to finish too low? More likely a lower mash than planned I'd think.

[Qs]

Reading the score sheets again leathery is oxidation I think. I was just listening to the BN talking about off flavours this week and Tasty was saying that people get off flavours mixed up due to how they remember them. Its a good listen actually if you want to get more info on solving and identifying off flavours. Some interesting stuff about perception.

[Shane Phelan]

Did you undershoot your target mash temperature?  I know your target temp was 67 but perhaps it was a bit lower leading to a drier finish due to less residual malt backbone in the beer. Also what is your water profile, a soft water profile lacking in minerals would hold you back in terms of making the malty flavours shine though. I know that is one problem I am attempting to solve with my water at the moment.

Also what was the year of the hops you bought from the HBC?

[molc]

Do you get the vegetable flavour yourself? Is it canned veg flavour or grassy hop derived veg flavour? Did you whirlpool the 0 minute additions for long? Dry hop?

No I don't get it myself, but I just never seem to notice DMS or diactyl. I just smell citrus/fruity hop aroma.

Reading the score sheets again leathery is oxidation I think.

Cool, I'll have a listen of that podcast. As for oxidised, I bottled and naturally carbed the competition entries, so I woudn't expect it unless my siphon let in too much air.

Did you undershoot your target mash temperature?  I know your target temp was 67 but perhaps it was a bit lower leading to a drier finish due to less residual malt backbone in the beer. Also what is your water profile, a soft water profile lacking in minerals would hold you back in terms of making the malty flavours shine though. I know that is one problem I am attempting to solve with my water at the moment.

Also what was the year of the hops you bought from the HBC?

* Mash started at 67.3 and went down to 65.5 over 60 minutes, which could certainly account for the dryer finish. I'm now doing a simple herms to hold those temperatures.
* Water is Raheny water, which is medium hard as far as I know? Interesting though, something I must investigate.
* The hops were all 2014 harvest.

[Leann ull]

How long did you dry hop for?

[molc]

How long did you dry hop for?

No dry hopping, just hops at 60, 10 and 0.

[Qs]

Did you get much of the trub into the fermenter?

By process of elimination here it really goes sound like DMS. How hard is your boil?

[molc]

Nope, kept 4 litres back in the kettle so there would be no trub. Boil was 2 elements until the boil started, then just the 2.4kw element for 60 minutes. As for hard, err, it bubbles...

[Qs]

Try it again with a 90 minute boil?

[molc]

Thanks for all the ideas. Here's what I'm thinking of doing:
1. Changing the recipe. The beer is too dark and too hoppy. The second recipe posted should fix that, while keeping most of the character of the first attempt.
2. Keep mash at 67 constant with a herms recirculation, both to hold temp and also to increase clarity.
3. Boil for 60 mins, but not covering the BK when cooling until the temp is below 60.

After that, bring it to some guinea pigs (club meets), along with the original tasting notes, and see what has changed. Also if the vegetal aroma and flavour is still judged present, look into 90 min boil or other tricks.