Garden County American Ale Comp

[Shanna]

You should come out to one of our meets its like doing 10 rounds with Mike Tyson, why? because shit beer is shit beer and we all want to help each other work out what their problem in what they brewed is instead of them thinking its ok 

Own worst critic here when I know what it is wrong I won't lie to myself. However picking out the flaw when you don't have any reference/experience to guide you is tough.
Shanna

[Damo]

Delighted with the results!

Well done all

Out of interest, both of my entries made it to BOS.

Brown scored 38
Amber scored 39

Congrats to all involved, I'd a great day out

[Bubbles]

From what I judged and saw the quality was low. A lot of serious basic mistakes like temp control of fermentation and from what I saw PLEASE READ THE STYLE GUIDELINES before entering.

Great day today lads but hard work.

Completely agree with Nigel on everything there. Personally, I found yesterday's judging was a pretty horrendous experience. I judged only 9 beers, excluding the BOS. I'd say only 3 of those were both drinkable and decent examples of the style, though unremarkable. I also sampled a couple of beers in other flights. Here's where I get a little pissed off.. Several beers were absolutely riddled with solvent. Another beer was so badly infected I immediately spat it into another glass and probably turned the stomach of poor Ed opposite me. But I had to keep sipping this crap for the next 15 mins because someone had paid their fiver. Not pleasant at all..

Later in the day the assembled judges had a discussion about having to taste lots of beers like this in competitions. To my relief, most of the judges were of a similar view to me - beers that are obviously infected or undrinkable due to serious process flaws should NOT be entered in competitions! No judge should have to taste crap like that, and by entering mucky beers you're just making a mockery of the hard working lads who give up their time to organise these competitions. A couple of judges took a different view on this, but it's my belief that local meets are the best place for inexperienced brewers to get constructive feedback on beers they suspect are dodgy. If there's no local clubs near you then you can still arrange to drop off your beer to another home brewer. There's lots of people who would be happy to oblige with this.

This attitude of "I know this tastes like shit, but I'm going to enter it anyway, to see what they say.." needs to stop.

I know some of you are probably saying "what, you want to be a beer judge, but you only want to judge the good beers??". It's a fair question - but I know I don't want to subject my liver or brain to that kind of punishment on a regular basis. To be honest, given my experience on Saturday, and a similar experience judging at the Nationals last March, I'm very unsure about pursuing a "career" as a certified BJCP judge. The headache I had this morning was unlike anything I've ever experienced before. And I'm blaming the nail polish remover some people seem to think is "beer".

Apologies if this makes me sound like an arsehole but I think this is a serious issue and it needs wider discussion, not just among a handful of judges.

On a positive note, between all of us, we were able to identify the small number of good beers and the three medal winners got their rewards for a job well done.

Right, go on then, have a go at me..

[Shanna]

From what I judged and saw the quality was low. A lot of serious basic mistakes like temp control of fermentation and from what I saw PLEASE READ THE STYLE GUIDELINES before entering.

Great day today lads but hard work.

Completely agree with Nigel on everything there. Personally, I found yesterday's judging was a pretty horrendous experience. I judged only 9 beers, excluding the BOS. I'd say only 3 of those were both drinkable and decent examples of the style, though unremarkable. I also sampled a couple of beers in other flights. Here's where I get a little pissed off.. Several beers were absolutely riddled with solvent. Another beer was so badly infected I immediately spat it into another glass and probably turned the stomach of poor Ed opposite me. But I had to keep sipping this crap for the next 15 mins because someone had paid their fiver. Not pleasant at all..

Later in the day the assembled judges had a discussion about having to taste lots of beers like this in competitions. To my relief, most of the judges were of a similar view to me - beers that are obviously infected or undrinkable due to serious process flaws should NOT be entered in competitions! No judge should have to taste crap like that, and by entering mucky beers you're just making a mockery of the hard working lads who give up their time to organise these competitions. A couple of judges took a different view on this, but it's my belief that local meets are the best place for inexperienced brewers to get constructive feedback on beers they suspect are dodgy. If there's no local clubs near you then you can still arrange to drop off your beer to another home brewer. There's lots of people who would be happy to oblige with this.

This attitude of "I know this tastes like shit, but I'm going to enter it anyway, to see what they say.." needs to stop.

I know some of you are probably saying "what, you want to be a beer judge, but you only want to judge the good beers??". It's a fair question - but I know I don't want to subject my liver or brain to that kind of punishment on a regular basis. To be honest, given my experience on Saturday, and a similar experience judging at the Nationals last March, I'm very unsure about pursuing a "career" as a certified BJCP judge. The headache I had this morning was unlike anything I've ever experienced before. And I'm blaming the nail polish remover some people seem to think is "beer".

Apologies if this makes me sound like an arsehole but I think this is a serious issue and it needs wider discussion, not just among a handful of judges.

On a positive note, between all of us, we were able to identify the small number of good beers and the three medal winners got their rewards for a job well done.

Right, go on then, have a go at me..

Strong words and I suspect that nobody intentionally is trying to give you or any other judge a headache from solvent I. otherwise. But to remain a bit of balance it might be instructive to assist those who entered to diagnose the root cause. I was one of those whose beers had a solvent aftertaste remarked upon. I brought the beer to the prior South Dublin meet. One person remarked on that it maybe a fuesel alcohol but I don't remember any mention of a possible cause than high temperature which I discounted due to the temperature control I have had just started using. The local meets are good & feedback is forthcoming from different people yourself included. The feedback however does need to be more directed to help people get to the root cause of problems.

Sympathise on your hangover but I would imagine it's a hazard of the job.

Shanna

[molc]

Shanna hit the nail on the head there. The quality of feedback at local meets us usually quite poor, which leaves competitions as one of the few ways of getting useful critique on your beers, if you are the sort of brewer for who this is inportant.
At the local club level, we really need to do some more critical tasting or set aside a portion of the evening for some real grilling on people's beers.
The other side of poor entries is that your feedback may stomp out that issue and make that person finally sit up and fix that part of their process. After the nationals, I really worked on temperature control and yeast and stomped out the off flavours I was seeing in my beers. The comments from the competition were able to guide me in the right direction here.

[Bubbles]

Shanna, just to be clear. I didn't judge your beer at the comp so I wasn't referring specifically to your beer.

I hear what you're saying - maybe it's part and parcel of the job. But only up to a point.. Try drinking three or four of those kinds of beers in a row and maintain your enthusiasm for beer judging. Several of the judges, certified and much more experienced than I, were saying the same yesterday. Also, minor off flavours are one thing, but anyone who's entering badly infected beers into competitions really needs to reconsider.

As regards the meets, it's fair to say that critical evaluation is often lost amongst the general banter. But it's up to you, not the group, to make sure you get the evaluation and remedial advice you want. It's not a big effort to grab someone aside and ask for their advice - I do it all the time at the meets and have always got the advice I needed.

Your own beer at the last meet did have hot alcohols, though I remember at least three people were of this opinion. But as you say, you quickly discounted the advice that was on offer regarding hot ferm temps. I do think people were trying to do our best to advise, but it's hard to do so without knowing your procedures and so on.

Fair points molc. But as i said above, the meets are whatever you want them to be. It's not always realistic have a calm and ordered analysis over the tables when you have ten chaps drinking beers. Especially if the meets are big in numbers. But if you grab people aside selectively, then you'll get whatever advice you need.

[Will_D]

If you consider a beer undrinkable then: STOP! Don't drink any more there is no point in poluting your pallate.

There is probably a clue in the nose first, but maybe not. So cautious sip and then apply the above test.

Our 8th beer (so just before lunch) was a truly phenolic 13. I tatsted it once and that was it!

We were then offered another beer to judge before lunch which we declines as it would take lunch to cleanse the pallate.

So there you are. The brewer gets feedback about the MAJOR problem. But you don't try to keep scoring all the other attributes. It gets 13 and probably the only other score on the sheet is for appearance!

I am not going to mark the carb level, mouthfeel, hop nose and tastes etc and try to get them to add up to 13 ! It gets an overall of 13 period.

HTH other judges

[Leann ull]

Grain, especially crushed and Hops go off even when hops stored vac packed in freezer.
Don't be afraid to chuck as what went in my bin over week-end, your beer will thank you for it

[Shanna]

Shanna, just to be clear. I didn't judge your beer at the comp so I wasn't referring specifically to your beer.

I hear what you're saying - maybe it's part and parcel of the job. But only up to a point.. Try drinking three or four of those kinds of beers in a row and maintain your enthusiasm for beer judging. Several of the judges, certified and much more experienced than I, were saying the same yesterday. Also, minor off flavours are one thing, but anyone who's entering badly infected beers into competitions really needs to reconsider.

As regards the meets, it's fair to say that critical evaluation is often lost amongst the general banter. But it's up to you, not the group, to make sure you get the evaluation and remedial advice you want. It's not a big effort to grab someone aside and ask for their advice - I do it all the time at the meets and have always got the advice I needed.

Your own beer at the last meet did have hot alcohols, though I remember at least three people were of this opinion. But as you say, you quickly discounted the advice that was on offer regarding hot ferm temps. I do think people were trying to do our best to advise, but it's hard to do so without knowing your procedures and so on.

Hi Bubbles,

Ut would not matter whether or not you were referring to my own beer as I am speaking in general anyhow. I have felt for a while now that our own meet has started to stray a bit away from tasting the home brew and instead focusing on the craic/fun of several middle aged men getting let out once a month (guilty as charged your honour). Specifically I would suggest two or three small tweaks including no drinking from the bar till after the home brew is tasted, encourage people to sniff, taste and probably spit to avoid overdoing it on the booze. I would also expect that some klnd of pallet cleanser like crackers would help to that end.

I don't want to be a kill joy but I think that if heads are a little more engaged that it would improve the level of feedback that is on offer and encourage us all to discuss, dissect and get to the bottom of issues that people are having. Would be interested to hear what you think on my suggestions? Personally I have found it very hard to recently to get quality feedback even though I know that there are lingering issues that I am aware of and want to diagnose and eliminate wherever possible.

Shanna

[Dr Jacoby]

Nooooo! Those hops could have been used in a lambic!   

[Leann ull]

There was a kg of them! No shortage of aged hops out there! Start a thread you would be swamped.

[Andrew]

[Bubbles]

Specifically I would suggest two or three small tweaks including no drinking from the bar till after the home brew is tasted

I don't think you'll get many takers on that. I certainly wouldn't be in favour. Firstly, because I like having a few nice pints on the night. And secondly, because the DH is not a drop-in centre. It's a business, and it's everyone's responsibility to buy a few pints from the bar to thank them for their hospitality. The home brew tends to get finished well past 10pm. That's not much of a return for the DH on a school night.

I don't want to be a kill joy but I think that if heads are a little more engaged that it would improve the level of feedback that is on offer and encourage us all to discuss, dissect and get to the bottom of issues that people are having. Would be interested to hear what you think on my suggestions? Personally I have found it very hard to recently to get quality feedback even though I know that there are lingering issues that I am aware of and want to diagnose and eliminate wherever possible.

I have to say, I always get what I need out of the SD meets. I listen to the opinions on my beers, and if none are forthcoming, I specifically ask for some. People frequently suggest improvements, and if I think they're worth doing, I implement them. If  i want advice on Belgian styles, I ask Brewtus.. If I want advice on meads or BJCP comp stuff, I ask Beerfly.. I grabbed Rossa aside 2 months ago to ask him about doing my first sours. And so on.. I don't see why you're saying the feedback you get is not up to scratch? You need to take whatever you need out of the meets.

We have small numbers which encourages plenty of table-wide chatter about the beers being tasted. Like all of the meets, there are plenty of opportunities for breakaway chats to diagnose specific issues. If you don't feel you're getting anything out of the meets, then you need to explore other avenues - like looking for advice from more experienced home brewers on a 1:1 basis. I know it must be frustrating for you, but I don't think blaming the "low-quality" feedback is your answer here.

But by all means, put it to the group on Thursday evening and see what they think.

[Shanna]

Specifically I would suggest two or three small tweaks including no drinking from the bar till after the home brew is tasted

I don't think you'll get many takers on that. I certainly wouldn't be in favour. Firstly, because I like having a few nice pints on the night. And secondly, because the DH is not a drop-in centre. It's a business, and it's everyone's responsibility to buy a few pints from the bar to thank them for their hospitality. The home brew tends to get finished well past 10pm. That's not much of a return for the DH on a school night.

I don't want to be a kill joy but I think that if heads are a little more engaged that it would improve the level of feedback that is on offer and encourage us all to discuss, dissect and get to the bottom of issues that people are having. Would be interested to hear what you think on my suggestions? Personally I have found it very hard to recently to get quality feedback even though I know that there are lingering issues that I am aware of and want to diagnose and eliminate wherever possible.

I have to say, I always get what I need out of the SD meets. I listen to the opinions on my beers, and if none are forthcoming, I specifically ask for some. People frequently suggest improvements, and if I think they're worth doing, I implement them. If  i want advice on Belgian styles, I ask Brewtus.. If I want advice on meads or BJCP comp stuff, I ask Beerfly.. I grabbed Rossa aside 2 months ago to ask him about doing my first sours. And so on.. I don't see why you're saying the feedback you get is not up to scratch? You need to take whatever you need out of the meets.

We have small numbers which encourages plenty of table-wide chatter about the beers being tasted. Like all of the meets, there are plenty of opportunities for breakaway chats to diagnose specific issues. If you don't feel you're getting anything out of the meets, then you need to explore other avenues - like looking for advice from more experienced home brewers on a 1:1 basis. I know it must be frustrating for you, but I don't think blaming the "low-quality" feedback is your answer here.

But by all means, put it to the group on Thursday evening and see what they think.

I was not suggesting no drinking just to defer a little later in the evening as i thought the idea was to concentrate on the home brew & reward the DH for their largess by buying a few pints afterwards. Your right however best to pitch it to the group. I am not saying feedback is up to scratch but I am saying that recently I have felt it's getting displaced by the banter & focus on having a few pints at the same time. I am not trying to proscribe but instead suggest by the way Would you think the DH would have any problem with us bringing along crackers as pallet cleansers?

Shanna

[molc]

I think a lot of this dishcssion should happen in the scd sub forum or at the meet lads.
Generally though, one idea for beers that need constructive feeedback is maybe bring your brewsheet and notes with recipe from the brew day, so people can really break things down to give some feedback. Also if you slap out your notes in front of you, people will know that beer is looking for some real critique and give it to you straight.