Raspberry Wheat - Is there any way to ensure sweeteness?

[WaterWolf]

I have a bunch of raspberries that have been sitting in a freezer for a long time. As I already have too much fruit wine I have decided to brew a raspberry wheat beer. My main concern is that I will just end up with a very sour beer which would not be to my taste. I'm aiming for something that tastes a bit like Founder's Rubaeus only more wheaty!

My current recipe is:

Batch Size   21.493 L   
Boil Size           25.993 L
Boil Time           60.000 min   
Efficiency           78%
OG   1.055   FG   1.014
ABV   5.3%   IBU   16.5

Grains:
Pale Malt (Minch)    2 kg
Wheat Malt            2 kg
Wheat, Torrified     500g
Munich Malt         225g
Carawheat            175g
Special B Malt         110g
Total                       5kg

Hop Additions:
Bramling Cross        28g   60min   IBU:   16.5

Raspberry Additions:
750g in boil with 10mins to go.
750g in primary.
1.5kg in secondary.

Yeast:
Danstar - Munich

Mash Temp:
68 degrees for 60mins


As you can see I am adding some raspberries into the boil and primary. Apparently Rubaeus has raspberries added at various different stages so I'm trying them all! Adding raspberries to the boil doesn't seem to be commonly done but I'm hoping it might add a bit of a raspberry jam flavour to the beer (this is a blind assumption!) I this a stupid idea?

Do you think that upping the amount of speciality malts might increase the impression of sweetness? If all else fails I can sweeten it at time of serving but I'd prefer it to be sweet enough right out of the bottle.

I also have a few more raspberries I could throw in there, but I'm already using more than most recipes I've seen. I note however, that even more raspberries are recommended in this recent post? http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,14969.0.html

[mr hoppy]

Sugar is raspberries turns into alcohol, making the beer dry.

Many moons ago I did a raspberry wit and found this out the hard way.

I fixed this using Splenda - a non-fermentable artificial sweetener. I took a measured sample amount of the beer and kept adding the splenda until it was just barely sweet, before scaling up to the full batch. If you do it this way and add the bare minimum it should work pretty well.

You could probably use lactose as well, as long as it's non-fermentable by your yeast you should be fine.

I found that my perception of fruitiness was much greater when the beer wasn't too dry.

On adding raspberries to the boil - that would probably add cloudiness. I think there's pectin in raspberries and that heating it is what causes jams to coagulate so not too sure if that would be a good idea or bad idea in a beer.

As an aside I've only used Danstar Munich once. I don't know Rubaeus - I assume it doesn't have a Weiss character - because if that's what you are aiming for I don't think you'll get it from Munich.

[Drum]

Just thinking out loud here and more asking a question than answering.
I don't know if it would work but could this beer be treated like a cider? As in let the fermentation finish then knock out the yeast with cambden tabs or something similar, and then back sweeten with rasberries and force carbonate in a corny?

[WaterWolf]

Thanks for the advice. I've never used splenda in anything but it may be worth a try. Otherwise I can add sugar syrup at the time of serving - I've done this with a couple of ciders before.

There's not so much pectin in raspberries anyway but I don't really mind the haze. The yeast has low flocculation so I would expect it to be hazy anyway.

I would like to have some Weiss character in the beer, a bit like Fruli (Fruli is pasteurised before strawberry syrup is added so it has no problems with sweetness.) Rubaeus is also a wheat beer but doesn't have much Weiss character. The Danstar Munich wasn't my first choice of yeast but that was all that was available at the time. I've never used it before (or made a wheat beer before).

I have also wondered if you could use Campden and Potassium Sorbate on a beer, like you would a cider or a wine. I don't see why not other than you may be more likely to still have yeast in suspension in a finished beer (campden and sorbate do not kill yeast, they just inhibit them from reproducing, so they could still come back to life later on - I had a bottle of back sweetened cider explode a year and half after bottling!). In any case, I don't have a keg!

Fruli is pasteurised before strawberry syrup is added so it has no problems with sweetness.

[WaterWolf]

I finally got the free time to start making this beer last weekend. At the start of the boil I put the raspberries in my mash bag and hung that into the boiler so it wasn't near the element. At the end of the boil there was a burnt smell from the wort and a bit of a burnt aftertaste. The element was coated in a thick layer of burnt stuff which I had to chip off (the element was clean at the start of the boil).

I'm not sure if this is the result of having the raspberries in the boil of if something else was going on with my wort. In any case, the burnt flavour isn't wholly unpleasant so I'm carrying on with the fermentation to see if it blows off. It appeared to be going strongly this morning.

[biertourist]

Splenda or Stevia; both I'd imagine should work well.  Lactose has a definite lactose taste and other fake sugar sugars have a chemical taste.


Adam

[WaterWolf]

Another update on this: during fermentation the burnt flavour appeared to get worse rather than better. There was a smell like cigarette ash coming from the fermenter. At the end of primary fermentation the burnt taste was pretty bad, which was a pity as there is a hint of something nicer underneath. I moved it all to a plastic carboy a couple of weeks ago without adding the extra raspberry intended for the secondary fermentation. I also put some in a bottle with priming sugar. I'll let it sit there another couple of weeks before I decide whether it is time to toss it or not!

I don't know what caused the burnt flavour - hopefully it won't occur again during whatever my next brew is.

[BrewDorg]

Do you BIAB? I used to get the burnt wort on my element too. I found that direct heat from the element during the mash caused the surrounding wort to heat up and scorch. The only way to resolve this is to recirculate the wort during the mash. Nowadays I don't bother direct heating the mash and I haven't scorched wort since.

[WaterWolf]

Yea, it's BIAB with the element in direct contact with the wort. My bag is well clear of the element though - I'm using a pizza tray as a false bottom! The issue seemed to occur during the boil rather than during the mash - the element was still clean after the mash, it was only after the boil that it was coated in burnt stuff. I don't think there's a way for me to heat indirectly without buying new kit...

[Keg]

Another update on this: during fermentation the burnt flavour appeared to get worse rather than better. There was a smell like cigarette ash coming from the fermenter. At the end of primary fermentation the burnt taste was pretty bad, which was a pity as there is a hint of something nicer underneath. I moved it all to a plastic carboy a couple of weeks ago without adding the extra raspberry intended for the secondary fermentation. I also put some in a bottle with priming sugar. I'll let it sit there another couple of weeks before I decide whether it is time to toss it or not!

I don't know what caused the burnt flavour - hopefully it won't occur again during whatever my next brew is.

This also happened to me, strangely enough also while doing a BIAB raspberry wheat beer although I didn't add the raspberries until a few days into fermentation. I mash in a cooler box mash tun these days and boil in the peco boiler and haven't had that issue since.

[BrewDorg]

It's the heat during the mash that causes the scorching. There'll be a small bit during the boil too but the activity of the boiling wort does enough to keep it moving and stops it scorching. When you have the bag in for the mash, the wort closest to the element is just sitting there getting hotter and hotter which eventually leads to scorching. What I do now is heat my water to strike temperature, turn on my element altogether, dough in and then keep the tun well insulated so it doesn't lose heat. I get minimal scorching since I started doing this.