Historic Irish ale & porter recipes

[cruiscinlan]

There's been a few posts in the past on old styles like brown porter, diastatic brown malt etc. on here so there may be some interest in older Irish recipes.

Does anyone here have access to recipes of what used to be made here in the past?  In BJCP there's dry stout and Irish red ale.  The red ale in particular I've seen criticised, it only being included becausxe Michael Jackson included it as a category.

How for instance would you recreate the sourness of historic Guinness?  3.6% acetic acid in an analysis copied from Ron Pattison's blog:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ie/2011/07/guinness-xx-porter-in-1861.html

Or Drogheda Ale?

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ie/search/label/Drogheda%20Ale

Battersby's Registry for the whole world", 1851, pagepage 566.

Funny how the two beers mentioned - Drogheda Ale and Guinness XX Porter are the very beers analysed by the Royal Dublin Society. It's a measure of the stature of Drogheda Ale in the middle of the 19th century.

This short text gives some idea of the fame of Drogheda and Castlebellingham Ale,

    "Our hour wore on rapidly, and it was with regret I left the manufactory, and once again sauntered down the avenue. Shall I confess it, the next five minutes saw us ensconced in a shady arbour of a village auberge, idly drinking the white "Bière de Strasbourg" — the name of which had attracted our attention, and whose merits we were now discussing with surprising zest and eagerness. Burton, Bass, Drogheda, Castlebellingham, and a dozen other ales and beers were debated with all the warmth of Irishmen; and now, quietly remembering the pretty arbour, with its clustering green loaves, the odd hostess, and her high cap, and the animated group, I am tempted to laugh at the recollection, of how strenuously we abused the production of Strasbourg, and yet ended by finishing all the bottles placed before us."
    "The Northern magazine, March 1852 - February 1853", 1853,page 41.


But what the hell was white Bière de Strasbourg? Some sort of Witbier?

William Makepeace Thackeray seemed quite impressed with Drogheda Ale, too:

    "Of one part of its manufactures every traveller must speak with gratitude—of the ale namely, which is as good as the best brewed in the sister kingdom. Drogheda ale is to be drunk all over Ireland in the bottled state: candour calls for the acknowledgment that it is equally praiseworthy in draught. And while satisfying himself of this fact, the philosophic observer cannot but ask why ale should not be as good elsewhere as at Drogheda: is the water of the Boyne the only water in Ireland whereof ale can be made?"
    "The works of William Makepeace Thackeray, Volume 14" by William Makepeace Thackeray, 1869 , pages 263 - 264.


More about Drogheda Ale to follow, I hope.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ie/2011/06/drogheda-ale.html

Oddly enough the Drogheda Mild was 9%

[Leann ull]

There were lots of other issues at play as well
Quality of the supply
Freshness of ingredients and storage and handling of same
Handling and delivery
Cutting down by the bars with water.

So a beer in June could be radically different from one brewed in Sept. A bit like cider really.

My own personal perception looking at various archives over the years was that they were pretty bad by today's standards although they could probably hold their own on porters and stouts.

[cruiscinlan]

There were lots of other issues at play as well
Quality of the supply
Freshness of ingredients and storage and handling of same
Handling and delivery
Cutting down by the bars with water.

True enough, and there's Hely Duttons famous remarks on the truly dreadful ales of Ennis when he visited there.

But there were genuinely superior beers made in Ireland at the time made by brewers who produced on a massive scale like Beamish & Crawford and Guinness of course as well as ales from Castlebellingham and Drogheda.

Even taking Guinness, (wear garlic around your neck for this bit) made a range of beers like an XX porter, as well as a Foreign Extra that I'd like to try reproduce if only to have an idea of a stout that (like it or not) conquered the world before being neutered into what we know today.

Cairnes in Drogheda made a Stingo as well.

CH what archives did you have access to and what if any recipes did you find?

[Qs]

There were lots of other issues at play as well
Quality of the supply
Freshness of ingredients and storage and handling of same
Handling and delivery
Cutting down by the bars with water.

So a beer in June could be radically different from one brewed in Sept. A bit like cider really.

My own personal perception looking at various archives over the years was that they were pretty bad by today's standards although they could probably hold their own on porters and stouts.

Like a lot of current Irish breweries then. 

[dcalnan]

I got the beamish and crawford book for christmas, and there's a lot of info in it, but the only information on recipes it gives are per barrel, so for instance their single stout used;

65.89 lb pale malt
3.49 lb patent malt
2.66 lb hops( no info on what kind)
4.59 lb of sugar
1.17 gallons of acid beer (aged beer -stale and unpalatable)

All their archives are in UCC now.

[Leann ull]

Have they been categorised in UCC as it was only the Murphys ones up to now, they were in council last time in checked?

[dcalnan]

They're not fully categorized yet http://booleweb.ucc.ie/documents/Beamish%20Crawford%20List%20Revised%20Aug%202012.pdf all in boxes. I can't find any information on the city archive website so they might have moved them recently. I might go and have a look someday, not a student there anymore but I think graduates can get in easier.

[Leann ull]

PhD student did a great job on the Murphys archive, I may wait so for same as don't fancy trawling you could be there for years!

[cruiscinlan]

I got the beamish and crawford book for christmas, and there's a lot of info in it, but the only information on recipes it gives are per barrel, so for instance their single stout used;

65.89 lb pale malt
3.49 lb patent malt
2.66 lb hops( no info on what kind)
4.59 lb of sugar
1.17 gallons of acid beer (aged beer -stale and unpalatable)

All their archives are in UCC now.

Well even per barrel is handy enough as you can work out percentages from that.  Based on the above it was:

89% Pale malt (4.2kg/23L)
4.8% Patent malt (223g/23L)
6.2% Sugar (293g/23L)

Hopped at a rate of 7.4g/L giving

169g/23L batch

The amount of acid/soured beer added was 3.2% of the barrel. 

At an efficiency of 75% this would give 23L of 1.050 wort.

Do we have any further information on the soured/acid beer and how it was made? i.e. it's total acetic acid equivalent or pH as well as abv?

Is this a relatively recent Beamish & Crawford recipe as in post 1950s? I ask as the addition of the soured beer at 3% of total volume is near enough to the amount Guinness add currently (or so I believe).

[dcalnan]

so reading more into that chapter those recipes are from 1868, and that its og was 1.060. It doesn't mention any further info on the acid beer. But it includes the ingredients for a Stock Ale brewed in 1875 that used twice as much pale malt , hops and sugar. so the DIPA has been around since then.

[cruiscinlan]

But it includes the ingredients for a Stock Ale brewed in 1875 that used twice as much pale malt , hops and sugar. so the DIPA has been around since then.

From what I can make out, thats 91% efficiency!  Was that possible with the technology of the time?  It also doesn't give any idea of allowance for liquid lost to the leaf hops.

Here's a description of how Guinness made their strong sour:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.ie/2010/03/dublin-porter.html

Dublin Porter

Barclay Perkins were not alone in considering blending the defining feature of Irish Stout. Frank Faulkner, writing in the 1880's, concurred. His description of the blending process is well worth reporducing here.


"I suppose that Dublin porter, especially that produced by one firm, stands out pre-eminently as a special and distinct type of beer, and just as Mr. Steele, in his work on brewing, asserted that the whole success of the original London porter brewer turned upon the adoption of deep and closed-in coppers, so much of the distinctive character of the Dublin porter spoken of depends undoubtedly upon the immense capacity of the store vats.

    According to Mr. Steele's idea, restricted convection and increased temperature of ebullition decide more perfect caramelisation of wort extract; and, on the other hand, depth during storage determines definite fermentative changes and the development of special varieties of alcoholic ferments. Now let me, in full view of these two distinct influences, which depend altogether upon plant arrangement, and which have been undoubtedly accidentally adopted, describe the main features of the Irish process.

    First of all, there is the undoubted softness of water, that used in Dublin being a mixture of mere canal Dublin water, and river water, the organic impurity of which is counterbalanced, comparatively, by the antiseptic nature of wort constituents; then follows the selection of material, there being but little diversity of opinion as to what proportion of the different descriptions are most suited to the special flavour requisite, while as a general rule the Dublin brewers strictly adhere to exceptionally good pale and black malts, the proportion varying from 90 to 94 of so-called pale, according to its exact colour yield, and the balance of black. This is a very simple matter — a mere question of colour ; and all I want to point out is that brown, amber, or crystalline malts are not used in this centre.

    There is little to say about the actual mashing process, boiling, or collection of wort.

    Invariably using good material there is no necessity for stewing or any of the careful manipulation that is usual when dealing with inferior malt, when employed for the production of pale beers. The wort is frequently, indeed, procured by making up lengths, the liquor of which has been sparged over goods at the boiling temperature, while enormous boiling quantities leading to extreme caramelisation are submitted to ebullition in closed coppers.

    It is pretty clear, then, that by employing material of the nature referred to, mashing it at comparatively low temperature, and rapidly boiling off the collected worts, a dry extract is obtained, abnormally rich in dextrin, albuminous, and inert bodies, a combination which invariably ensures palate fulness; but it is not exactly the character of wort that has gained for Dublin the renown undoubtedly attaching to its black beers, this being due more to a peculiarity of flavour, partly acquired through the fermentation of immense bulks, the storage of similar bulks for prolonged periods in vats, and the very careful system of "blending" carried out.

    For instance, a Dublin brewer, we will say, brews in the season large quantities of a high-gravity stout at 32 to 35 lbs. [1089º to 1097º] saccharometer weight, this being stored in the immense vats mentioned for some twelve months, although it is possible that this period of storage varies according to the time when the matured flavour commences to develop, this matured heavy stout constituting, as I may describe it, the flavouring portion of the mixed or blended beer that is afterwards disposed of locally or exported.

    Next we have the mild porter, brewed daily according to requirements upon the usual lines, but not finally vatted; and, thirdly, we have the "heading," which, in several of the breweries, consists of a portion of very strong first wort partially fermented, say to half original gravity, and clarified to a definite extent by skimming; this prepared day by day, and employed, as I may express it, perfectly fresh, and in that exact condition of quietude that each brewer finds necessary.

    There is nothing difficult in seeing that if these three distinct beers — the one matured, the other mild and clean, and the third half-fermented, be mixed together in different proportions, we can secure a great many varying flavours, degrees of fulness, and tendency to early cask condition.

    In other words, the required flavour and condition for the several trade outlets are arrived at, not by uniformity of intermixture, but by a perfectly distinct variation in the several percentages of vatted, mild, and heading descriptions. I have no hesitation in saying that the success of Messrs. Guinness depends on good material, great bulk during fermentation and vatting, and ingenious intermixture of different qualities of produce, whereby a perfectly uniform palate flavour is secured.

    For instance, what would be the proceeding for a mere local demand? It might be summed up thus : A large and definite proportion of mild, a dash of matured, a heavy quantity of what is termed gyle or heading, and a warm racking room, to give the immediate cask condition; while, on the other hand, and to simply give the extreme case for export, the proportionate intermixture would be entirely different and the heading would sink to a minimum.

    This general principle underlies the whole of the several processes common to Irish breweries, but I think it would be manifestly unfair to enter into further detail. Many people have attempted to imitate the treble intermixture process by substituting returned porter or old beer, which has been bought, for what I have described as the matured or vatted stout, and by using, for heading purposes, actual fermenting wort or simple malt flour, but in every case complete failure has resulted. The old, or returned beer is different in every way to stout matured under pressure, while the fermenting wort or the malt flour, however vigorous they may be in the direction of inducing condition, are in no sense comparable with a strong wort partially fermented; since, in one case, we are introducing developing yeast wholesale, in the other merely wort with high fermentative capacity, freed from excess of yeast-forming matter by the semi-fermentation that it has passed through.

    I do not think that the Irish brewers touch sugar at all; it certainly would not answer for the special kind of beer produced by the one firm that exports alone 350,000 barrels a year, and I hold that, as this export does not represent tied trade in any sense, it practically means perfect system of production. In main, I have pointed out the principle on which such production depends, while there is no doubt that, theoretically speaking, it is both interesting and instructive.

    I have often heard brewers extol the peculiar softness of their own stouts, but they have generally ended with the remark that, do what they will, they cannot procure the exact Dublin flavour. They will not, perhaps, wonder at this after reading the above description of the Irish process; and I again lay special stress upon pressure, grist proportion, and uniform blending of distinct quantities of three definite beers."
    "The theory and practice of modern brewing" by Frank Faulkner, 1888, pages 260-264.


Though he only mentions them once by name, he's clearly discussing Guinness and their methods.

The Guinness grist, as I've said many times, was different to that used in London, consisting of just pale and black malt. But, if we're to believe Faulkner, it wasn't this that set it aprt from English beers. The large volume in the fermenters, vatting in large quantities and careful blending that's what lent it a unique character.

If you think about it, there's a certain irony there. Large volumes, ageing and blending: they were are all important in London Porter brewing until around 1850 or so. The success of Guinness demonstrates that there was still a considerable market for partially-aged beer, even though the process had been largely abandonned by English brewers.

What surprised me about the Guinness process was the third beer, or "heading".  Never come across something like that before. It's not clear exactly when this was blended in. Perhaps at racking time to serve as a sort of priming.

Given the failure of other English brewers to emulate Guinness, I wonder if Barclay Perkins had any luck with their Irish Stout type?

[cruiscinlan]

For those interested in information on the history of brewing in Ireland, particularly the development of nitro dispense http://allaboutbeer.com/man-invented-nitro-guinness/

Guinness recipes from 19th century prior to the use of roasted barley or flaked barley: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/06/19th-century-guinness-extra-stout.html  and http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/06/guinness-draught-1883-edition.html

Recipe

Batch Size: 5.00 gal
SRM: 23.8
IBU: 43.8
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.014
ABV: 4.3%
Final pH: 4.31
Brewhouse Efficiency: 67%
Boil Time: 120 mins

Grain
--------
82.8% - 7.5 lbs Crisp Gleneagles/No. 19 Maris Otter
10.3% - .95 lbs Muntons Amber
6.9% - .625 lbs Simpsons Black Malt

Mash
-------
Sacch I - 40 min @ 152F
Sacch II - 20 min @ 160F

Hops
-------
1.00 oz Fuggle (Pellets, 3.57 % AA) @ 90 min
1.00 oz Fuggle (Pellets, 3.57 % AA) @ 60 min
1.00 oz East Kent Golding (Pellets, 4.80% AA) @ 30 min
Scaled all three hop additions to account for the higher utilization assumed for a low gravity beer.

Other
-------
1.4 g Chalk @ mash
0.5 Whirlfloc @ 5 min

There was also Guinness brewed in Bristol http://zythophile.co.uk/2007/11/06/bristol-fashion-guinness-and-the-roast-barley-question/

BRISTOL-FASHION GUINNESS AND THE ROAST BARLEY QUESTION
6TH NOVEMBER 2007 MARTYN CORNELL   

Where and when was the first Guinness brewery opened in England? If you answered “Park Royal, 1936”, whoops, the loud noises and flashing lights have gone off, that’s the WRONG answer, by more than 100 miles and just under 100 years.

In 1838 John Grattan Guinness junior had been sacked from the brewery business in Dublin started by his grandfather for drunkenness and “mixing with degraded society”. His uncle, Arthur Guinness II bought him a brewery in Bristol to try to give him another chance. Unfortunately John Grattan Guinness does not seem to have been a businessman, and the Bristol brewery went under in 1845. Much later, after he fell into poverty, John G tried ungratefully and unsuccessfully to sue his cousin Benjamin Guinness for wrongful dismissal from the Dublin brewery.

While John G was still running the brewery in Bristol, however, he was evidently visited by the brewer and writer George Stewart Amsinck, who was shown several different brews, all apparently based on St James’s Gate originals. Amsinck eventually printed the recipes for the beers as part of Practical Brewings, a manual of 50 different brewings published in 1868.

Their interest comes from their being the closest we have to genuine Dublin Guinness recipes of the late 1830s, showing us brewing methods and, in particular ingredients and proportions of different grain types.

Guinness had been among the first porter brewers to seize upon Daniel Wheeler’s “patent” malt for colouring porters and stouts when it appeared in 1819. This was the first properly legal beer colouring (because tax had been paid on the malt before it was roasted into Stygianity) to let brewers make really black beers, which is what the public expected in their porters and stouts, while using almost entirely pale malt, which gave a much better extract of fermentable sugars than the high-dried and “blown” malts the original porter brewers had used. An advertisement for Plunkett Brothers, the Dublin makers of patent malt, dated 1873 quotes a letter from Guinness saying the St James’s Gate brewery had used its products for “over fifty years” – in other words, since at least the very early 1820s.

The recipes Amsinck recorded at John G Guinness’s Bristol brewery included a Dublin stout of 1096 OG, using 96.8 per cent new pale Suffolk malt and 3.2 per cent “black” (that is, roast) malt; a Country Porter (the name Guinness at St James’s Gate gave to the beer delivered outside Dublin) of 1067 OG, brewed with the same ratio of black and pale malts; and a Town Porter (the name Guinness gave to the beer brewed for sale in Dublin) of 1061 OG, ditto for the grain bill but with half the hops of the Country Porter. This last, Town beer was kept for only a day after fermentation was finished, before being mixed with 10 per cent fresh wort (a technique called gyling) and put out into the trade for consumption within a fortnight, making it truly a mild porter, in the proper sense of mild as fresh beer made for quick consumption.

The particular point to note today about all these beers is that they used roasted malt, not the roasted barley that commentators such as Roger Bergen, writing in Brewing Techniques in November 1993 say is “critical” to the Guinness palate. In fact Guinness could not have used roasted barley when John G was working there, because it was illegal: no grains could go into the brewing of beer that had not been malted, and paid the malt tax.

That only changed with the passing of the Free Mash Tun Act of 1880. But there seems to have been no rush by Guinness to use (cheaper) roasted barley in place of roasted malt. The experts seem to have been against the idea: Henry Stopes, writing in his 600-page bible Malt and Malting, published in 1885, insisted that roasted barley did not give as permanent a colour as roasted malt, and “the flavour is also very inferior; and the aroma can bear no comparison.”

So when, as Ron Pattinson has been asking, did the roasted malt change to roasted barley? Alfred Barnard, when he visited St James’s Gate in 1889, still found the brewery using “patent” malt. But opinion on roasted barley was shifting away from Henry Stopes’s dismissive view: Alfred Henry Allen wrote in Allen’s Commercial Organic Analysis in 1912 that: “Roasted barley is now largely taking the place of roasted malt, the latter being used mostly in the brewing of export stouts.”

All the same, Guinness looks to have held on for a couple of decades more. A guidebook for visitors to the St James’s Gate brewery published in 1928 said: “The chief difference between Ales and Stout are … in the use of roasted malt, which imparts both colour and flavour to the stout.” In the 1939 edition, however, the copy had changed to read “… the use of roasted malt, or barley” (my emphasis). It looks, therefore, as if Guinness began using roasted barley only in the 10 years between 1928 and 1938.

By now, it appears roasted barley was replacing roasted malt generally: Herbert Lloyd Hind’s Brewing: Science and Practice, published in 1938, says: “There are a number of distinct types of stout and porter, for which different blends of materials are used. On the one hand, are the stouts brewed from malt only, or from malt and roasted barley, On the other are the sweeter stouts, for which a fairly high percentage of sugar is employed … Roasted barley gives a drier flavour than roasted malt and is preferred by many.”

There is, I believe, a 1932 edition of the Guinness guidebook, which I don’t have, which may narrow this timespan down. The 1952 edition repeats the words of the 1939 one, but the 1955 edition has an additional significant change. Under “malting” a sentence has been added which reads: “Some of the barley is roasted before being used for making Stout, a little is now used in the form of barley flakes [my emphasis, again], but much the greater part still goes through the traditional malting process.”

So: it looks like Guinness only started using roasted barley to make “Irish stout” in the late 1920s or 1930s, and began using flaked barley in the early 1950s. Expert commentary suggests roasted malt Guinness would have tasted very different from roasted barley Guinness – did anybody notice


Guinness Gravities in the 19th century.
On the subject of Guinness gravities in the early 19th century, David Hughes’ “A Pint of Guinness Please” has some details of the Dublin-brewed beers:

Town Porter
———–
1801-13 1063-1065
1814-16 1067.5-1070
1817-20 1063-1063.5
1824 1064
1840 1063
1860 1063
1867 1063
1881 1057
1895-1914 1057

ES or DS
——–
1824 1082
1840 1082
1860 1079
1867 1079
1881 1076
1895 1073

FES
—
1824 1082
1840 1098
1860 1076
1867 1076.5
1881 1073
1895 1073

[LiamK]

Hijacking this thread a little...

I'm more of a stalker than a poster here but I'm looking for help.

I'm trying to recreate an early 19th century recipe for a beer brewed in Carlow, and after a little bit of dithering I've settled on a Brown Stout recipe, based on Ron Pattinson's extrapolation of a Reid recipe from 1837 - attached.

I've had a little bit of a response on twitter with regards to the malt when I was looking at a porter recipe, but I'm still curious as to peoples' thoughts on the types available in Ireland. Carlow was well known for the quality of their malt but I can't find records of what types were available.

Also I'm wondering if there was still a hint of smokiness to malts back then? What's the closest dry yeast I could use that is comparable to what might have been in use? Would there have been a brett-like quality to the beers from being stored in barrels, even if for a relatively short time?

I can appreciate there will be no definitive answers but any comments on these or other points would be appreciated.

Liam

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

Most likely the range of malts was limited or non existent.

Tax pressures on malt fostered the development of black patent and pale malt which afforded more extract, and the use of diastatic brown malt went into decline.

If you can pinpoint when recipes started to use a mix of malts in the local area, you can guess when maltsters started to make different malts

[LiamK]

Thanks for replying to me.

I think that surely with the proliferation of malthouses locally that some were experimenting with temperature and colour ... but I have no proof or records sadly. I made contact with a local historian with a view to looking at some private records he curates, and sharing information but he has ignored me! I might try again...

Amber malt has been mentioned to me by others, and I wonder was that used instead of brown? And what type of black malt?

First mention of brewing a porter locally I have come across is 1831 but would they have been importing darker malts? I really don't know and I can't find relevant malting records anywhere.

My feeling at the moment is that it would be just just good quality pale malt with a little black patent...

Liam