Beer Not Hoppy and down the drain !

[stevosan]

Hi
Wondering if you can help me. I have been brewing all grain for several years with great results (even won a local homebrew comp once abroad), but since I moved to Dun Laoghaire in South Dublin, I have had 3 all grain batches in a row go down the toilet. Shocking! Gave up brewing for a while but the bug is coming back now..

Two main problems:
1. Was brewing an IPA and it had no hoppy flavour at all  (a red IPA, came out super malty)
2. Even worse was some major off flavour. I still cant identify what it was, I think Astringent or Diecetyl maybe .

I am going to buy a grainfather and re-start my whole process.
Buy all new ingredients.

Can someone please advise a simple all round water addition program for me?

I assume I have Ballymore Eustace water here, this is what I did
Dublin, Ireland       

1. Add half a campden tablet to 16L and boil it the night before, use this as my mash in water the next morning
2. Add 1.25 tsp gypsum and add 0.25 tsp Calcium Chloride CaCl2   to the grain.

Does this seem about right for South Dublin?         
Calcium: 20.00 ppm      
Sulfate: 35.00 ppm       
Magnesium: 1.50 ppm         
Chloride: 25.00 ppm          
Sodium: 12.00 ppm         
Bicarbonate: 32.00 ppm          
PH: 6.80       


1. Do I need to up any water additions ?
2. Could it be my hops were old (possibly some of them had been opened previously and stored in the freezer) ?
3. Could I have some bacteria somewhere in my system?


I used to think this Randy Mosher India Red Ale was a no-fail recipe , so much munich malt and hops would balance out almost anything . 3 in a row messed up!
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/india-red-ale.160034/




Thanks~!
Steve
   

[Qs]

Maybe go to 1.5 or even 2 tsp gypsum and half a tsp Calcium chloride. You can really push the sulphates a bit more for hoppy beer IMO.

Do you check your PH? A bit of acid in there might help too.

[nigel_c]

If in doubt, get an RO system.

[DEMPSEY]

are you holding your hops in a hop bag. let them loose to get the most out of them. cooled boil water is fairly soft from that neck of the woods so more on the sulphate to bring put the hops.

[molc]

Heya,
It does indeed sound like water is the culpit here, as you've brewed the recipe previously with great success. South Dublin water is meant to be fairly soft, so that would suppress your hops quite a bit. However with all the treatment going on after the snow, it's a bit pot luck what is coming out of the tap.

You mention campden in your mash water, but not in your sparge. I'm assuming it's in both, otherwise a hoppy beer with give you a chloro phenol, which is a bit like burnt plastic or solventy.

Without tasting the off flavour you describe, it's hard to say what's going on. Diactycl would be butterscotch, like a Werthers Original. Astringent on the other hand is puckering - like biting into the seed of a grape.

A quick way to check this it to do a batch using the tesco ashbeck water. It's fairly predictable and you can look up a profile online to do your hoppy beer and see if that works.

[stevosan]

Maybe go to 1.5 or even 2 tsp gypsum and half a tsp Calcium chloride. You can really push the sulphates a bit more for hoppy beer IMO.

Do you check your PH? A bit of acid in there might help too.

Thanks, will do that.
Any concerns if it says that my gypsum / calcium chloride is out of date?
Re. PH meter, what are you using to check?
what acid would you use then?

[stevosan]

are you holding your hops in a hop bag. let them loose to get the most out of them. cooled boil water is fairly soft from that neck of the woods so more on the sulphate to bring put the hops.

Yes, I was using a hop bag.
Will let them loose next time, thanks

[stevosan]

Heya,
It does indeed sound like water is the culpit here, as you've brewed the recipe previously with great success. South Dublin water is meant to be fairly soft, so that would suppress your hops quite a bit. However with all the treatment going on after the snow, it's a bit pot luck what is coming out of the tap.

You mention campden in your mash water, but not in your sparge. I'm assuming it's in both, otherwise a hoppy beer with give you a chloro phenol, which is a bit like burnt plastic or solventy.

Without tasting the off flavour you describe, it's hard to say what's going on. Diactycl would be butterscotch, like a Werthers Original. Astringent on the other hand is puckering - like biting into the seed of a grape.

A quick way to check this it to do a batch using the tesco ashbeck water. It's fairly predictable and you can look up a profile online to do your hoppy beer and see if that works.

hmmm , now you have me thinking...
Yes, I did not use a campden tab in my sparge water...
So you think I might have a chloro phenol? Even if I am heating my sparge water to 70C+..

Down in Booterstown I didnt use any campden tabs at all and was fine. Now I am here in Dun Laoghaire..

Will use the Tesco ashbeck water in the next batch, thanks.

[molc]

It's chloramine in our water, not chlorine. It doesn't evaporate,  so you need the Campden to react with it.

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[BrewDorg]

Irish Water claim the opposite. They use chlorine, not chloramines.

https://www.boards.ie/ttfpost/103616856

Monochloramine is not monitored at our water treatment plants as monochloramine is not used as a disinfectant in the treatment process. In fact monochloramine is not used in any of Irish Water's treatment plants in Ireland. Our treatment plants use sodium hypochlorite or chlorine gas to disinfect the water and this is monitored through the continuous measurement of free chlorine in the drinking water leaving the treatment plant.

The average chlorine level in the Portlaoise water supply over the past two years was 0.36mg/L with a maximum of 0.69mg/L (as recorded from our regulatory monitoring programme). The average total chlorine concentration was 0.41mg/L with a maximum of 0.77mg/L. These levels are not excessive in relative terms.

[Shanna]

Stevosan I had exactly the same problem as yourself and surprise surprise I live in South Dublin in Blackrock. I invested in an RO unit not so long ago after brewing a hoppy beer recipe with RO water and concluding that the water was a large part of the problem. I would also add though that I used hops from the yakima valley and they definitely are of a better quality with respect to hop aroma and flavour. Could the hops be a part of your problem? How old are your hops? How do you store them? For aroma hops if you don't get a good aroma from the hops when you open them its unlikely you will get a lot of aroma in the beer.

Few other things to consider at what point do you add your aroma hops? I started to add my aroma hops after chilling the wort to 80C and then adding them in and then rather than in the 100C, supposed to loose less essential oils from the hops.

Shanna

[Shanna]

With respect to the off flavour if your using a plastic bucket for fermentation then consider ditching it and getting a new one or better still switch to stainless steel or plastic. If you have taps in your system that are plastic like in a bottling bucket then consider replacing with a new one. Additionally any old tubing or siphons that you have you might want to consider replacing them. If you have any of the beer bringing it along to the next South Dublin meet and we will give it a go at identifying it.

If your going to store hops in the freezer try and make sure that they are vacuum packed as they will oxidise over time. Is there any chance that your grain might be past its best as you mention about buying all new ingredients.

Shanna

[molc]

Irish Water claim the opposite. They use chlorine, not chloramines.

https://www.boards.ie/ttfpost/103616856

Monochloramine is not monitored at our water treatment plants as monochloramine is not used as a disinfectant in the treatment process. In fact monochloramine is not used in any of Irish Water's treatment plants in Ireland. Our treatment plants use sodium hypochlorite or chlorine gas to disinfect the water and this is monitored through the continuous measurement of free chlorine in the drinking water leaving the treatment plant.

The average chlorine level in the Portlaoise water supply over the past two years was 0.36mg/L with a maximum of 0.69mg/L (as recorded from our regulatory monitoring programme). The average total chlorine concentration was 0.41mg/L with a maximum of 0.77mg/L. These levels are not excessive in relative terms.

I stand corrected! Thanks for the info!

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[SlugTrap]

Maybe go to 1.5 or even 2 tsp gypsum and half a tsp Calcium chloride. You can really push the sulphates a bit more for hoppy beer IMO.

Do you check your PH? A bit of acid in there might help too.

+1

Read an interview with brewer from Breakside in Oregon (they win IPA gold at GABF all the time) who said don't even bother with expensive hops if you're not managing mash PH.

[stevosan]

Thanks Everyone for the tips.
This story has a happy ending, I have brewed good beer again. a nice little Summer brew - Belgian Wit.
Will try and bring some down to the next South Dublin meet.
I followed Molc's advice and bought Tesco water. That has done the trick.
Shanna - I only ever use glass carboys for fermenting
Next step I will buy a water filter see if that will help.
Liking my new grainfather.
thanks all!