Immersion chiller

[Ciderhead]

One of the better you tube vids I've seen about twisting the pipe around paint tins
http://youtu.be/vipL11vq_g8

[newToBrew]

so this i slightly off topic - but a concern regarding chillers none the less....

throwing it in to the boiler wit h10 minutes to go always concerns me slightly that it is touching a hot element - I have 2 elements - but only one on th ego at that point

-- any thoughts - opinions - am I worrying about nothing

[Will_D]

so this i slightly off topic - but a concern regarding chillers none the less....

throwing it in to the boiler wit h10 minutes to go always concerns me slightly that it is touching a hot element - I have 2 elements - but only one on th ego at that point

-- any thoughts - opinions - am I worrying about nothing

Have no concerns about a copper coil touching a kettle element - no problem there!

However most of us put the cooloing coil in the fermenter and run the boiling wort over the coils to sterilise the cooler. Then when the fermenter is full turn on the cold water. BTW. make sure the cooler is empty of water before trying to sterilise it!

[newToBrew]

thanks will - thats interesting way of doing it - can you tell me wahat the benefits are of that method versus chilling in the boiler Vs teh fermenter ?

[Shanna]

Probably leaving myself open to criticism here (as in I am talking shite :-) but here goes anyway. My understanding that wort is acidic and so when putting the chiller in the wort this is going to strip any crud off the chiller and this ends up in the wort. This probably won't amount to much but I would say its like taking a shower before swimming (I prefer to not to swim in my own or other peoples bath water). I like to soak and clean the chiller in a hot citric acid solution first. This should clean the chiller of any surface crud and then sterilise it in the worth for 10 minutes.  I guess it's the difference between making it sanitary (e.g clean) and sterile.

Shanna

[Will_D]

There should be no crud on the cooling coils to start with!!

There is a big difference between sanitary and sterile: Sterile means autoclave at 15 psi for 10 mins or more, sanitary means basically clean!

If you sanitise your coil in the boiler and then move to the FV then you MAY pick up an airborn bug or 3 as the coils and wort will cool pretty quickly!

Surely you would not cool the boiled wort in the kettle and then run into the FV?

[Shanna]

I keep my immersion coil in my shed and it might not get used for a month or more at a time.  While I do keep n it covered it shows signs of both turning a darker colour over time.  Let's just say it is a dark brown colour.  I would not feel comfortable putting it in the wort with out cleaning it first.

Shanna

[Shanna]

Hi will

Just to clarify I too would use the chiller in the fermenter, my point was to make sure the chiller is as clean as possible before it comes in contact with the hot wort.  With respect to sanitary v sterile my understanding is that using starsan for example would sterilise the surface of what it comes in contact with. Also baby bottles for example put into a steam based steriliser for bottles would be considered sterile.

Shanna

[newToBrew]

Surely you would not cool the boiled wort in the kettle and then run into the FV?

thats what i always do !!
why is this wrong
are you saying i should
1. put chiller into boiler while wort is boiling
then
2 put into fv
3. pour the boiling wort into fv with chiller - (knock off the element when pouring)
note - i do wash -claen the chiller before each use and soak it in my bucket of star san / bleach vinegar for @ an hour before use

[Ciderhead]

Surely you would not cool the boiled wort in the kettle and then run into the FV?

thats what i always do !!
why is this wrong
are you saying i should
1. put chiller into boiler while wort is boiling
then
2 put into fv
3. pour the boiling wort into fv with chiller - (knock off the element when pouring)
note - i do wash -claen the chiller before each use and soak it in my bucket of star san / bleach vinegar for @ an hour before use

Rinse chiller with water, no steriliser, no bleach nothing, JD had a great post about this last week.
Put you chiller in the boiling wort 10 mins before the end, it will sterilise.
At switch off or flameout turn on water.
If you move Chiller to FV where is all the sh*t falling out from your cold break? in your FV yuch

Objective over say 10 brews is to build up crud on your chiller so that you dont have fresh copper
long term exposure to star san bleach will rot through your copper eventually

To lift straight off another site
You don't want to clean your copper immersion chiller with any thing corrosive. Vinegar, bleach, etc will cause the copper to oxidize (green powdery oxide on the surface of the copper. This will cause your chiller to become weaker and more brittle over time, i.e. more suseptable to failure, especially in the high thermal gradient environment of a heat exchanger.

Ideally you want a "nice passive oxide layer" Copper and aluminum will form a slightly dull layer on the surface of the metal that also caused by oxidation. But this oxidation forms a protective layer that prevents the metal under it from oxidizing. Don't scrub this layer off, or you will be opening up the fresh metal underneath for oxidation. This cycle will continue with each scrubbing (abrasive or chemical cleaning). It will look nice and shiney, but the tube wall thickness will be getting smaller and smaller to the point where it fails -- think non-sterile garden hose water seeping into batch of beer at best, or a major catostrphic rupture at worst -- very bad.

Just rinse off the immersion chiller after each batch, and try to leave some water inside of the chiller each time, it will help to buffer some of the thermal stresses inside the chiller itself as it starts to heat up. Also wisps of steam from the end of it are a good sign that boiling is near.

[marceldesailly]

ye I would say most people use the chiller in the boiler - why would you put it in the fv?

[newToBrew]

so.. for once Shiney is not good !!

me thinks will is winding me up !!
think I'll change my name to naiveToBrew !!!!

[JD]

Two things:

Firstly, copper oxide CuO is the black tarnish on copper pipes and, by and large, is not soluable in water. This is why it is used in domestic plumbing. A second form of copper oxide exists Cu₂O. This is red in colour and is most commonly seen when black copper oxide is left in moist air. Both are irritants and mildly toxic.
When you put a chiller in to hot wort, you are bringing copper oxide into contact with a hot mildly acidic solution. This will dissolve the copper oxide and leave the chiller clean and shiny. The copper oxide is now dissolved in the wort. No two ways about it. The open question is whether the amount dissolved is significant from a health perspective. I don't have an answer but I will simply play safe on the issue. I clean the chiller with StarSan and a rinse before use. This removes the oxide without getting it into the wort.

As regards lifetime of the chiller, it makes no difference what so ever. Here's why: the boiling wort removes the oxide anyway. The starsan removes the oxide anyway. The bare copper is attacked by the wort and starsan to similar degrees. The result is the same. Chillers do not last forever, but they will last long enough as not to matter.

So, clean the thing with StarSan and regret nothing. Brewing and cleanliness are best buddies.

---
My second point is about where to chill. Always chill in the kettle. Never chill in the fermenter. There a few reasons why:
1. Hot wort does not dissolve oxygen as readily as colder wort. It does, however, more readily react with oxygen to produce various oxidation products. These reactions products will affect flavour and aroma and are unlikely to be desired by the brewer. Cold wort will more readily dissolve the oxygen and less readily oxidise. This leaves the dissolved oxygen available for the yeast.
Transferring hot wort to a FV so that it can be cooled will expose the wort to a lot of oxygen. Better to cool it first and then transfer it to the FV with lots of splashing (cos now, we really want to oxygenate the wort).

2. Cold break is best left out of the FV. A bit is inevitably transferred to the FV and it does provide some nutrition for the yeast but this is best kept to a minimum.

3. One usually uses the boiling wort to sanitise the chiller anyway.

I am not a real lawyer, scientist, chemist, priest, shamen, or Wizard of the Inner Circle so your mileage may vary.

/JD

[Ciderhead]

Agree 100% except with this bit

"This will dissolve the copper oxide and leave the chiller clean and shiny"

I just rinse before and after, I used to spray with SS before storage and no rinse, not a good idea?

Mine is turning a nice darker colour suggesting I am sealing the copper and any I have seen of the older variety in pic here are not shiny because they are not cleaned

[newToBrew]

good points JD - I guess I'll carry on as normal

Cold break is best left out of the FV.

So what do you do here for this ?  _ what I mean is do yoy leave behind some liquid in your boiler ?

how this has come up in my head is that I have my hop strainer across the floor of my boiler - the tap is a few inches up the wall of the boiler connected to the strainer with a dip tube  - I always hop with loose leaf hops in the boiler - but am considering making a hop spider - one of the concerns I have with this now - is that I always considered the hops to provide a natural filter for the break material  when draining into the fv
this would now go away and I imagine I would be draining the boiler to the last drop which I presum would bring the break material with it