TTL => DTD (Down the drain)

[Bazza]

Hi all,

Went to bottle my latest brew last night (Timothy Taylor Landlord). At the end of the night I was left with 1 very clean corny, 6 very clean bottles and a drain feasting on 22 litres of sour, cidery-tasting muck. I knew the game was up when, having handed the missus a beaker of it to confirm it was gone, she replied 'Mmmmm.. your cider's coming on well'.

Looking at this:-

http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

...it most closely matches the 'Sour/Acidic' section (3rd from bottom) and this was confirmed by the white film that had appeared on the top of the wort after over a week in the fv. A wild yeast or bacterial infection it is, then.

Just wondering has that happened much to any of you out there and have you ever found a definitive reason? This has happened me on 2 occasions before but I attributed both to the fact that those brews had been dry-hopped using a muslin bag that had probably not been adequately sanitised (it was boiled both times). This brew, however, was not dry hopped. The yeast (washed Mauribrew ale) had done its stuff in about 2 days and it was tasting fine after 4-5 days. I ferment in a large stainless steel pot with the lid clamped firmly down with bungee cord, all enclosed in a temp-controlled fridge.

My list of possible causes:

1) Washed Mauribrew yeast, maybe it was infected. The starter fired up prertty quickly and the thing was going pretty good the next morning after pitching the night before. She was down to 1012 and tasting fine in 2-3 days.

2) Wild yeast in the brew fridge. It's pretty spotless and the lid is clamped down shut on the fv. Surely the few seconds at a time that I lift the lid to look in wouldn't be enough for loads of airborne bacteria to fall in, especially when there's a decent krausen on the top of the wort?

3) Sample cup inadequately sterilised. Since I ferment in a large pot the only way to get a sample for taste/gravity, etc is to immerse a small plastic beaker in sterilising solution for 10 mins, rinse, and dip into the wort. It's not a uniform plastic; there are little edges that may harbour bacteria, but I use a cup like this all the time, so why has it not caused more infections?

4) The night after It'd pitched the yeast, I came home pished from the pub and opened the fv to let my bro see what fermenting beer looked like. How long the lid was off, how much we marvelled and slabbered over the top of the wort, is lost in the fog. In fact, that same night I poured us a pint, forgot to turn off the CO2 and the tank was empty by the next evening. Still, this same white film-y infection has happened before when no drunken idiots were peering in.

I think I can narrow it down to two possibilities:

The yeast - this has only ever happened when I've re-used yeast; it's never happened with a new packet. Maybe my yeast washing technique is dodgy, maybe my starter was dodgy; it was about 5 days old before I pitched it.
The sample cup - The first sample I took was fine. The next time I looked in (about a week later) it was covered in a white film and at that point probably gone. Did the cup I used for the first sample introduce an infection?


Any thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated. Last night was not a good night


Cheers,

-Barry

[RichC]

My deepest sympathy!!! I know what it's like to lose a brew to infection, happened me once before.
What are you rinsing your sanitised cup in? If ur using Starsan or other no rinse concoction I'd dip it straight in. If its anything other than cooled boiled water it could introduce infection. I'd never let my tap water in touch with the cold side of my brew setup unless it was boiled first.

[matthewdick23]

barry- was it the same taste as the one ud given me before? next time, bottle one and keep it so we can taste it n help more

[matthewdick23]

did u make a starter at all?

[Bazza]

Lars: Thanks for the sympathy. I immerse the cup in a weak VWP solution then rinse under the cold tap. I'd be pretty confident in the cleanliness of the cold water; I use it to rinse everything from the fv before pitching to the bottles before bottling.

I'm toying with the idea of boiling a ladle of some description in water next time I'm taking a sample. The beakers are used in everyday life for things like milk, OJ, etc and I guess some times they're washed in the sink rather than the dishwasher, so maybe that's a possibility.

Shane: I ferment in a temperature-controlled brewfridge in the garage. The fv's a stainless steel pot with the lid clamped on tight with bungee cord.

Matthew: Yep, same taste as before and yes: I did make a starter.


Cheers,

-Barry

[Ciderhead]

I'm sorry for your trouble.
I never ever ever dip anything into my wort during fermentation, did I say never
For me it stops bubbling after 7-10 days and then I leave it another week, I know fermentation has finished and when I transfer to secondary, I use of the refractometers to work out FG
On brewdays I liberally use my starsan mister on everything, including myself.

[Greg2013]

Man i feel your pain, same thing happened to me not so long ago on my first adventure into AG using BIAB, what you are describing is exactly what i got as well but i never figured out where mine came from. I have moved from the kitchen into a spare bedroom for future brews so we will see if that makes any difference. 

[Bazza]

Cheers, lads.

So it seems the general consensus is leave well alone when fermenting.

So do none of you take samples mid-ferment? My old fv was a wine fermenter with a tap through I would take samples periodically. There's no tap in my ss pan.

@Ciderhead - Out of interest, how do you go about dry-hopping or, like Shane do you leave that kind of tomfoolery to other folk?


-Barry

[Ciderhead]

I dry hop in secondary 5-7 days with muslin coming out of a bowl of starsan and a big glass marble or a lesser quantity of hops in a corny on a thread.
I have a tea ball or if its a lot I just throw pellets in leave 5-7 days and then transfer into corny.
I am becoming a big fan of late addition hops and skip dryhopping alltogether.

The more you play with it obviously the greater the risk of exposure to wild yeasts and infection.
I know its nice to see how its progressing but all you really only need OG and FG.

4) The night after It'd pitched the yeast, I came home pished from the pub and opened the fv to let my bro see what fermenting beer looked like. How long the lid was off, how much we marvelled and slabbered over the top of the wort, is lost in the fog.

Is that the equivalent of beer dogging?

[Tom]

The white film (though I don't know what exactly it is) comes from the top being exposed to air, in my experience.

For example, when you transfer your beer, there isn't the same cushion of CO2 over the beer as before. I moved a brewferm fermented lager into secondary with an airlock, but because the CO2 didn't evolve enough, the oxygen-loving feckers got in and spiderwebbed my beer.

On the plus side, rack from the bottom, and carb-up and drink ASAP, and it won't taste too bad.

That's my experience. I've my flak jacket on! (and yes, it was sanitised!)

[matthewdick23]

not totally sure, but would needa check at home, but if ur starter wasnt stinking then the problem prob wasnt frm ur yeast-  u would have picked up same problem in ur starter. also, if its the same taste as beofre then id def say it wasnt ur yeast (unless it was the same yeast as before...?)

[Bazza]

The white film (though I don't know what exactly it is) comes from the top being exposed to air, in my experience.
For example, when you transfer your beer, there isn't the same cushion of CO2 over the beer as before.

I didn't really have the lid off that much, and I thought the CO2 would sit as a protective layer on top of the wort even with the lid removed, or does that disappear as fermenting slows down till one day you lift the lid and there's no more protective CO2? Maybe a good stretch of cling film would do the trick, so I can still check progress without letting any air in.

On the plus side, rack from the bottom, and carb-up and drink ASAP, and it won't taste too bad.

I was able to do that the first time I got that webbing, and it turned out okay. This time, though, I left it too long to rack and the beer tasted like cheap cider

not totally sure, but would needa check at home, but if ur starter wasnt stinking then the problem prob wasnt frm ur yeast-  u would have picked up same problem in ur starter. also, if its the same taste as beofre then id def say it wasnt ur yeast (unless it was the same yeast as before...?)

3 different yeasts on each different occasion. Only thing in common was that all the yeasts were recycled, but the yeasts and starters smelled fine each time.

-Barry

[Tom]

The white film (though I don't know what exactly it is) comes from the top being exposed to air, in my experience.
For example, when you transfer your beer, there isn't the same cushion of CO2 over the beer as before.

I didn't really have the lid off that much, and I thought the CO2 would sit as a protective layer on top of the wort even with the lid removed, or does that disappear as fermenting slows down till one day you lift the lid and there's no more protective CO2? Maybe a good stretch of cling film would do the trick, so I can still check progress without letting any air in.

We-e-ell, maybe, but you've got pressure problems then. Lagers ferment slower, so they produce the same CO2 but over a longer time, and don't do the whole frothy head thing as much. So if you remove the lid, then the small change in pressure above the wort and the movement of the air is probably enough to displace the CO2 blanket. What I did do once (after this problem) was put a few teaspoons of sugar into the bottom of secondary, so that a little more CO2 would be produced once in secondary. I can't remember it not working...

EDIT: also, if you put clingfilm on the fermenter you are going to trap in the sulphers and so on too, which will make your beer pong.

[Eoin]

Brownian motion means you don't have a perfect layer. But something has gotten in, I suspect while sampling.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

[Tom]

Brownian motion means you don't have a perfect layer.

Haaaaaaaa! Woo! *snorts beer through nose* &c