Help with head retention

[RichC]

Guys, see attached image for Randy Moshers Dicks Wheat Elixir Porter. A beautiful brew but with terrible head retention. Was thinking of replacing the pilsener malt with carapils. It's way over the recommended quantity for carapils but how different are they? Any comments?
Thanks!

[RichC]

Wheat gets counter productive with quantity, head wise, but in that it's the oats, specifically the oil slick they produce, that's the problem.

I'd like to see the recipe with 100g of wheat.

So would I but I'm not brewing it that way in case it's crap
It's hardly the high wheat percentage? How would hefes hold a head then?

[JD]

I'd limit the CaraPils to 15% of total grist bill. It should add some head retention, body and mouthfeel, but I'd not overdo it. Substitute 500g of the lager malt for the same quantity of CaraPils and see how it goes.

Adding 100g of torrified wheat might be an option as well.

/J

[Hop Bomb]

Do you usually toast flaked oats for your mash?

[RichC]

Do you usually toast flaked oats for your mash?

Yeah, for this particular brew the porridge oats are oven roasted until golden brown

[Ciderhead]

Its not all about the grains either

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/06/25/enhancing-beer-head-retention-for-home-brewers/

Golden Brown,sorry couldn't resist, starting to look old now, check out the guy at 1:17 whats he taken
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7R7q1lSZfs[/media]

[RichC]

Its not all about the grains either

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/06/25/enhancing-beer-head-retention-for-home-brewers/

Golden Brown,sorry couldn't resist, starting to look old now, check out the guy at 1:17 whats he taken
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7R7q1lSZfs[/media]

This ones the grains all right CH. Other brews are coming out with great head! Shane gets the same result with this beer. Does anyone here brew a stout or porter with a reasonable amount of porridge oats and get good head retention?

[Ciderhead]

Even by my wimpish standards you have a low hop loading though
I see you have been around the houses with this one as well. 
If you have tried those 10 suggestions just accept it that sometimes you can't always get great head

[rukkus]

Mashing high should give good body and head retention. What did you plan to mash at?

[RichC]

CH I refuse to accept the lack of head until I've exhausted all options.
Rukkus my next batch will be mashed at 70

[imark]

FWIW I've made a couple of oatmeal stouts recently and had no problems with that much oats. My last one had twice that much. I was drinking from keg (on plain old CO2).
I didn't toast the oats but I doubt that makes any difference other than flavour.

[Ciderhead]

CH I refuse to accept the lack of head until I've exhausted all options.

Whoooossshhh
That was the sound of innuendo flying right over your head (or lack of it)

Please summarise your options 1-10 for future generations and which you will dismiss and which you will try.

[RichC]

Whoooossshhh
That was the sound of innuendo flying right over your head (or lack of it)
Please summarise your options 1-10 for future generations and which you will dismiss and which you will try.

No CH, the quality of my beer is not a laughing matter:)

Theres 7 items on the list.
1. Head Enhancing Malts- still working on this but theres a lot of variations to try. Next brew I'll be using a lot more carapils and maybe others
2. Mash Schedule-single step, high temp. Already mashed at 68, will mash next time at 70C
3. Heading Agents-I'd rather not. I read about extract of pig in one of them. My muslim friends would not be able to sample my beer or they would forever lose their 80ish virgins on entry into heaven
4. Hops-Bumped up my total AAs on last brew but reluctant to go too high as its a malty brew that just needs to be appropriately bittered. Should be able to get good head retention without a load of hops
5. Household soaps-not the problem as its not affecting my other beers.
6. Nitrogen Mix- I bottle. Not going to happen. I dont believe you should need nitrogen to get good head retention
7. Shape of serving glass- Like household soaps, this isnt impacting my other beers(but I've tried several types of glass with this brew and it hasnt changed anything)

[Ciderhead]

First two look most promising thanks for the summary, will point back to it in future as I know the question has come up before

[JD]

Just been looking up my books to see what they say on using oats.

Palmer says:

... Rolled and flaked oats have had their starches gelatinized (made soluble) by heat and pressure, and are most readily available as "Instant Oatmeal" in the grocery store. Whole oats and "Old Fashioned Rolled Oats" have not had the degree of gelatinization that Instant have had and must be cooked before adding to the mash. "Quick" oatmeal has had a degree of gelatinization but does benefit from being cooked before adding to the mash. Cook according to the directions on the box (but add more water) to ensure that the starches will be fully utilized. Use 0.5-1.5 lb. per 5 gal batch. Oats need to be mashed with barley malt (and its enzymes) for conversion.

And Klungle says:

...can be up to 30% of the grist; it is imperative that flaked oats not be milled...

On CaraPils Palmer says:

...this malt is used sparingly and contributes little color but enhances the mouthfeel and perceived body of the beer. A common amount for a five gallon batch is 1/2 lb. Dextrin malt has no diastatic power. It must be mashed; if steeped it will contribute a lot of unconverted starch and cause starch haze.

And Klungle says:

a dextrin type malt... Delivers head retention, stable foam, body and mouthfeel. Carapils can be used from 5%-15% without significantly affecting beer color.

On Torrified Wheat, Klungle says:

offers normal conversion time and higher yield over raw wheat, while adding excellent body and head.

I'd not mash at 70^oC personally. The sweetness of the result would not appeal, particularly without a hefty hop bill to counteract it. 68^oC is my own top end leaving a nice balance of body and not too much sweetness.

Head retention is about keeping the proteins intact and a mash temp over 55^oC will denature the protease enzyme. This means a standard 68^oC will leave all the proteins in the grist intact.

My guess is that the problem you are facing is down to the oats you are using. Try leaving just them out of the above recipe for a test batch and see if the head retention issue remains. If you're dead set on using oats, try a different source. 
/J