Giving away beer to be drank in a pub, legal?

[CiderMonster]

I just got a phone call from the revenue commissioners in Meath. They referenced Subsection 77 (f) of the 2003 Act and they agreed,  as long as it is produced at home and there is no consideration it can be given to family and friends anywhere this includes a licenced premises. No issues.

[Rossa]

I just got a phone call from the revenue commissioners in Meath. They referenced Subsection 77 (f) of the 2003 Act and they agreed,  as long as it is produced at home and there is no consideration it can be given to family and friends anywhere this includes a licenced premises. No issues.

Nice work.

[Partridge9]

Well - Im off to buy my orthapedic shoes .. (so I stand corrected!)

[Garry]

@CiderMonster, Conrats on the wedding and welcome to the NHC.

It looks like you're sorted 

The "consideration" bit has me thinking though. Consideration in law is usually a monetary payment but it can also be goods or services. If I swap a bottle of homebrew with another homebrewer are we not "considerating" each other?

[Tom]

I prefer to look up the legislation myself, as it's a lottery as to whether you'll get the right answer over the phone from state agencies.

Hah, yeah... been there! It seems that, rather like the world's greatest joke or Bletchley Park... individuals are only allowed to know certain bits of helpful information. You need to try 3 or four revenue officials to get close to a feckin' answer.

[CiderMonster]

I've spent 7 months this year trying to get a cider manufacturing licence. I've got premises and suppliers and potential customers all lined up. I will be making another application in September for a new licence for 2014 – 2015. Hopefully that will go ok.

I shudder to think how they would apply excise to a cider/wheat beer mix? Because it is not a cider as defined by the revenue, but beer is subject to lower excise.

[Rossa]

I've spent 7 months this year trying to get a cider manufacturing licence. I've got premises and suppliers and potential customers all lined up. I will be making another application in September for a new licence for 2014 – 2015. Hopefully that will go ok.

I shudder to think how they would apply excise to a cider/wheat beer mix? Because it is not a cider as defined by the revenue, but beer is subject to lower excise.

Oh boy. Great combo. I've wheat yeast building up for a batch this weekend and although I'll blend cider with the wheat post fermentation it is a really tasty beer.

Are you planning on blending in post fv or is it possible to ferment the two together and still get a great result?

[CiderMonster]

Blend Post fermentation. I will let the cider fement and mature for a few months before I source the wheat beer. We just have to be very carefull with the blending. Mixing a 6% cider with a 4.2% wheat beer could result in a 5% cider/beer. The market mighn't be huge but we will give it a go.

We also intend back blending cider with some cascade hop addition. In small batches it works but once again it might not be for everyones taste.

We intend trying out a few mad things along with pure ciders some cider beer cross overs.
Fingers crossed.

[molc]

Interesting about the blending. How does it work if you try to blend the two after bottling, i.e. in the glass. What sort of differences do you get when they've given a bit of time to ferment together.

The reason I ask is I plan to make cider later in the year and I'm going to be kegging a wheat beer in the next few weeks, so I won't have a window to mix them before bottling.

[CiderMonster]

I can't imagine blending the two in the glass would cause any problems, it's a fancy snakebite. Just remember the resultant mixture is likely to be cloudy regardless how clear the two original liquids are.
Fermenting together I'm not so sure I like to let the cider do its own thing and ferment outside or in a room that's not heated or shed. A rule of thumb would be a nice slow fermentation of cider and a fairly decent maturing period produce the best result.
Saying that you can make a turbo cider if you want and you could probably ferment it together with the beer but I've never tried it or heard anybody trying it. I wouldn't risk a whole lot on the first batch God knows what jungle juice you would produce. Let me know how you get on if you try this.

[molc]

Ah I think this is a wording fail by me. I meant, ferment separately, but blend before bottling. I'm trying to figure out what the difference is in the final product between blending pre-bottling vs. just mixing like a snakebite.

As for fermenting together, I have seen that people add wheat malt to the cider fermentation, but that's not really the same as having a wheat beer yeast doing its thing in the same vessal as the AJ.

Interesting that is ferments happily outside in the cool though. I take it that temperature fluctuations don't have such an effect on cider.

Sorry for all the musings and questions; cider is quite new to me from a homebrewing perspective.

[Will_D]

I've spent 7 months this year trying to get a cider manufacturing licence. I've got premises and suppliers and potential customers all lined up. I will be making another application in September for a new licence for 2014 – 2015. Hopefully that will go ok.

I shudder to think how they would apply excise to a cider/wheat beer mix? Because it is not a cider as defined by the revenue, but beer is subject to lower excise.

Hi CM, You do know about the derogation in the (iirc) 1948 cider licensing laws?

To paraphrase:

"If you are a landowner and your buisness is not solely as a cider maker then you are exemnpted from the need to have a license."

This is how Tempted Cider won a legal case brought by revenue.

It means that if you are a landowner and make money from say: Eggs, bBeef, Chickens, Fruit Jams and Juices and you also possess apple trees then you can make and sell the cider without the revenue being involved.

If you want more info on the act it has been posted here but can also send you more info if you PM me

[Will_D]

Ahem, it's the 1940 Cider Duty Act (drafted into law in 1941). Search the statue book.

David Llewellyn was acquitted in court as he was/is operating under this Act. Google for it and you'll find media coverage of the case (Tempted are in the NI/UK where there is no similar Act)

Not bad tho' for an old fa*ts memory!

In the UK there is a farm gate clause that allows farmers to sell cider (up to a certain amount (large)) without the excise men getting their cut.

Similar law applies in Germany for cider and even Schnapps!