Is this legal?

[M.conor]

Hi all,

New here and have only limited experience kit brewing, But a group of us (some with more experience) have been offered some space and thought of setting up our own little brewery
Of course we have plans go public in some imaginary future.
But for now we envision as many as twenty of us brewing enough to meet our own needs, chip in monthly membership to cover costs and upgrade our motley collection of kit.
The question is as our space will be reasonably visible and some members will hardly have time to
Contribute time brewing, what's our legal position?

Any pointers would be appreciated, would love to be able to provide the group with a link to relevant law, but so far Google has let me down!

Thanks in advance
Conor

[Pheeel]

You're allowed to brew in Ireland for personal use. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV but I would suspect you're skirting into dodgy territory especially if you're brewing on behalf of others that aren't there. If it was shared space and folks that were brewing and taking it home then that might be alright

[Tom]

I love that question!

Don't post details of location, for obvious reasons (although I am getting increasingly paranoid).

The rule is simple: DON'T try and sell it, or swap it, or anything of the sort. Obey that golden rule and you have a strong case on the very remote chance that Revenue come a-knocking. The main concern, for me, is rates. If they sniff out something's going on that oughtn't, you'll be getting a commerical rates bill faster than you can say "it's not what it looks like". In fact, there's probably a bill already waiting for you.

What size kit are you thinking of? Because a 50 litre kit that gets used once a day by thirty to thirty one members is going to look a lot less suspicious than a 500l kit that a team of you, possibly all wearing matching T-shirts that you got made up, is going to look.

[M.conor]

Hmmmmm I assumed we might be on thin ice, but then again plausible deniability is solid legal footing....... Maybe. The thing really is that the guy who runs the space would love us to just go for it buy some serious kit and go pro but with so little experience this strikes me as madness, been looking for some mid range kit like the spike system but at our level we don't have the experience to make that call yet.

Of course it would be pricey but it occurs to me we could start a company, buy a brew license but perhaps stay in product development for a very extended period.

Don't actually mean to sound so dodgy and genuinely want to find a legal leg to stand on, The plan is to go pro just know we have a long road ahead.

Surely in this scenario we would be exempt from excise duty until we produced our first marketable product.

Tempted by this option and if I can't find any other options might just go ahead and talk to the local enterprise office.

Am I missing out on something? Being incredibly naive? It wouldn't be the first time for either. Will accept ha ha ha as a valid response

[cruiscinlan]

Hmmmmm I assumed we might be on thin ice, but then again plausible deniability is solid legal footing....... Maybe. The thing really is that the guy who runs the space would love us to just go for it buy some serious kit and go pro but with so little experience this strikes me as madness, been looking for some mid range kit like the spike system but at our level we don't have the experience to make that call yet.

Really? Why would the owner want that? 

Of course it would be pricey but it occurs to me we could start a company, buy a brew license but perhaps stay in product development for a very extended period.

This would also make you liable for excise.

Surely in this scenario we would be exempt from excise duty until we produced our first marketable product.

You would be absolutely liable to excise, although subject to an excise rebate if your production was under a certain level.

Tempted by this option and if I can't find any other options might just go ahead and talk to the local enterprise office.

Am I missing out on something? Being incredibly naive? It wouldn't be the first time for either. Will accept ha ha ha as a valid response

Homebrewers are exempt from excise provided the product is for home consumption etc., AND that brewing does not take place on a commercial premises:

Tax and Duty Manual Excise manual - Alcohol Products Tax and Reliefs Manual https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/excise/alcohol-products-tax/alcohol-products-tax-and-reliefs-manual.pdf

3.2.2. Homemade Alcohol Beverages
Subsection 77(f) of the Finance Act 2003 (as amended), provides for
relief from APT in certain circumstances in respect of wine, beer, or
other fermented beverages, the alcohol content of which is entirely
of fermented origin. The relief is confined to such alcohol products
produced solely by a private individual in a private premises, for
consumption by the producer, or by the family or guests of such
producer, and not produced or supplied for a consideration. The
relief does not apply if brewing takes place on a commercial
premises.

[johnrm]

Type Revenue into the search bar above.
Some threads that pop up are...
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/chit-chat/johnniebongos-brewery-on-kickstarter/
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/chit-chat/starting-up-a-brewery/msg143581/#msg143581
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/chit-chat/bring-your-own-beer-events/msg165664/#msg165664

Also, check on Beoir - www.beoir.org/community/ - Many discussions there on the business aspect of brewing.
Know what you want to achieve.
See that this fits revenues definition 100%.
Get speaking to revenue and make sure you're both on the same page.
If not, bail out.

[DEMPSEY]

you also need to be clear with all your fellow investors as to who does what.

[beerfly]

Surely in this scenario we would be exempt from excise duty until we produced our first marketable product.

You would be absolutely liable to excise, although subject to an excise rebate if your production was under a certain level.

you dont need to pay excise on a dumped batch, requires revenue oversight to confirm it's gone down the drain

[The Mottly Brew]

What I would watch out for is using a commercial premises for brewing I don't know if you remember "Beyond The Grape" ? They reckoned wine was fine but beer was a different story. You could ferment wine on a commercial premises but not beer ( Strange law ). When I looked into brewing beer commercially I was told I needed planning Permission to change the use of the building this involved a drainage system, Proper washing facilities, cool room, special milling system etc. Home brewers from what I understand can make beer and wine up 20% alcohol without a licence at home. If you are using a commercial premises different ball game.

For those of you who I know are going ask the usual crew  I got around this by not adding any yeast in the classes and did all my fermenting at home. Giving beer away for free is fine if homemade or home fermented more important.