cleaning / sanitising materials

[brenmurph]

Just had a long chat (15 mins) with Vincent from Biocel in Cork.
They supply cleaners to pretty much all the brewers big and small as well as hospitals, farms and so on. In addition they do water treatment aditives calcium and so on.

WE had a lot of banter on the forun and at meetings about cleaners and whats best and worst as well as pros and cons  e.g. bleach is hard to rinse and no so ozone friendly. Oxy action from Lidl is cheap effective but some say it does not kill spores, (I believe it does ( 105 brews and zero infections is worth considering) it is easy to rinse, odourless and rinses easily.
Other cleaners from home brew shops are expensive and often they are exactly the same as Oxy action from Lidl.

Biocel are putting together a package based on my chat with Vincent with recomendations, dosings, costs, delivery costs ( 5 euros) and are willing to do a good deal for professional detergents and sanitisers. It is worth considering and debating this subject a bit more so I look forward to his portfolio he is sending.

Worth considering is that many of their products are oxygen based cleaners and sanitisers one in particular peracetic cid he mentioned and also hydrogen peroxide, both oxygen based as far as my notes go. My years at Dominos Pizza in Naas I was familiar with their cleaning and sanitation, they used a 1 gallon, which was diluted to 1%) in a spray bottle for sanitising food machines an so on. This stuff was about 12 euros a gallon, thats cheap sanitation for a no rinse sanitiser; its a few years so I cant remember the chemical exactly

Keep an eye on this topic will have more in a couple days. Buying in Bulk 10- 20 litres may work out very cheap for top grade professional brewing hygeine products, keeping in mind that the above products are used in a 1-2% solution, which can be split up as a group buy, however depending on shelf life it may be worth buying a 5 litre each if price is right. ( smallest container 5 litres but sig savings for 2o litre drum)

comments welcome

[Ciderhead]

Nice work Brendan, Just need to be very careful buying chemicals that require watering down, it's an Irish thing to put too much in and this can be dangerous.
I have access to lots of chemicals used for sanitising dairies, I would never dream of using them, I wouldn't trust myself!
For me it's Oxi and starsan all the way as per treatment they are very cheap!


Sent from my mediocre phone and an average phone app

[brenmurph]

Totally agree, I was safety officer for Dominos and aware of chemicals. Theres a power form called Blitz powder which may be useful, the breweries were interested this for safety, convenience and so on ( one tspoon of safe powder in say a gallon mix)

There are people using chemicals anyway? how safe is bleach|? should be used cold to work properly but guess what the amount of people using bleach warm and destroying their lungs on the fumes....Oxy action from lidl, it works and guess what use rubber gloves coz your skin will dissolve....not sure about others..

The reason Im interested in researching this topic is that it would be nice to source safe, effective and  ozone friendly hygeine products at a proper price ( not the 50g of powder from home brew shops adding 50 cent cost onto a brew...10 cent would be more appropriate). from all the banter on forums and meet ups no one seems sure and there is no concencus on cleaning / sanitising. Biocel are spcialists and very very helpful. so we (our club) may move forward a little by understanding cleaning / sanitising better and agree on best solution so we can recomend to newbies and veterans alike.
Keeep in mind as we agreed in Lucan, sanitation should be number 1 recomendation for all brewers especially newbies who dont appreciate it till their beer smells and tastes wrong.

Thanks again John for posting the above safety comment

[Eoin]

The PDF in the following link is quite useful as you can take a lot of it for home use.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Chemical_and_Hazardous_Substances/Your_Steps_to_Chemical_Safety.pdf

The especially useful stuff to us is the key to hazard symbols and also the section on personal protective equipment.
It might do no harm for people to peruse it and use what is relavant in their home breweries.

[brenmurph]

Good post Eoin, I agree. We all need to be aware of our cleaning gear and the dangers associated with them.
Keep in mind my point above

quote myself:
           "There are people using chemicals anyway? how safe is bleach|? should be used cold to work properly but guess what the amount of people using bleach warm and destroying their lungs on the fumes....Oxy action from lidl, it works and guess what use rubber gloves coz your skin will dissolve..."
"
Our cleaning materials whether hydrogen Peroxide, or caustic materials, bleach or Oxy action from Lidl are all damaging if used improperly. Bleach is particularly dangerous in my opinion if use wrong and as a highly dangerous toxic fume producer when warm it should be noted that something as common as bleach needs to be used cold for effective results and for safety. Hot it can be a strong respiratory toxin and damage eyes as well as god knows what else it is capable of doing.

[Cathal O D]

Good topic Brenmurph. I would be interested in seeing where this can go.

[Eoin]

Good post Eoin, I agree. We all need to be aware of our cleaning gear and the dangers associated with them.
Keep in mind my point above

quote myself:
           "There are people using chemicals anyway? how safe is bleach|? should be used cold to work properly but guess what the amount of people using bleach warm and destroying their lungs on the fumes....Oxy action from lidl, it works and guess what use rubber gloves coz your skin will dissolve..."
"
Our cleaning materials whether hydrogen Peroxide, or caustic materials, bleach or Oxy action from Lidl are all damaging if used improperly. Bleach is particularly dangerous in my opinion if use wrong and as a highly dangerous toxic fume producer when warm it should be noted that something as common as bleach needs to be used cold for effective results and for safety. Hot it can be a strong respiratory toxin and damage eyes as well as god knows what else it is capable of doing.

I put down a bottle of nitric acid once in the bathroom and didn't put the lid back on it properly. I lifted it again later and it slipped as I had grabbed it by the lid which was not screwed on correctly and luckily it hit the floor square on and just sprayed a little out of the top of the bottle. My trousers dissolved on my legs, luckily I was in the bathroom and was able to flush everywhere it had touched after removing the trousers. I simply wasn't thinking at the time and was very annoyed with myself, after that I always took care with the acids. It's also possible that my eyes were saved that day by my glasses......

[brenmurph]

we had a fella in Dominos who opened a working dishwasher that had the descaling liquid in at the time, (bad lime problem in Toughers ind est) some eegit didnt put the warning sign on the dishwasher as was rourtine. He was lucky he just had a sort of fairly bad sunburn on his hands and face

[imark]

Interesting potential buy and good point on documenting the sanitation procedures.

The Chemipro Oxi is very pricey and I've been using a couple of scoops of lidl oxi to 20L of hot water for a while now myself. My routine is Oxi to clean, then a rinse with water and finally StarSan.

My understanding was you needed sequence of high ph and low ph to achieve a decent sanitise for equipment. Not sure where I've picked that up though.

[Cathal O D]

So what is the brand name of this lidl oxi cleaner

[Shane Phelan]

So what is the brand name of this lidl oxi cleaner

Also curious.

[Garry]

Is this the stuff?



http://www.lidl.ie/cps/rde/xchg/SID-48604C7D-247E1B8D/lidl_ni_ie/hs.xsl/4179_29380.htm

[Eoin]

Be aware if you have hard water the Oxi cleaners can drop a film of white stuff on your bottles if you soak them for extended periods, and it's hard to get off....which is why I was using Nitric acid in the bath that time, to remove a film of Oxi stuff from bottles.

[brenmurph]

Have a read below and feel free to criticise, debate and research further.

via a good friend of mine Dr P Simmons who runs an infecious disease testing lab, suggests nothing but nothing lives in sodium percarbonate I know him a long time and he holds a PHD in Biological sciences. The thing Id like to know is the Purity or concentration of sodium Percarbonate in the Lidl Oxy stuff. and just to repeat another post; Ive have 105 brews in the past 12 months not one infected, no off flavours including the 13 beers I entered in the competitions, that is good anecdotal evidence. The only cleaner / steriliser I have used is Lidl oxy partly due to the undisputable status of being 100% envirofriendly, cheap and effective.

W5 Oxy Power, 2.29 euros for 1kg powder. Active Ingredients Sodium Percarbonate 30% and enzymes.


Enzymes Im pretty sure are a mixture of various protases and amylases which denature proteins and carbohydrates which are exactly what bacteria, viruses moulds and spores are made from. it is unlikely any of above can survive except the spores which have a cellulose shell that makes them  more resistant to heat, acids and other killers, so in theory at least even the enzymes (unknown types may be nearly enough to sanitise on their own, but this studd is a very effective cleaner and rinses incredibly easily with little or no water. also it is also possible as a no rinse if it was required see all the info re using as a water treatment.

"Sodium percarbonate is a chemical, an adduct of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide (a perhydrate), with formula 2Na2CO3 · 3H2O2. It is a colorless, crystalline, hygroscopic and water-soluble solid.[1] It is used in some eco-friendly cleaning products and as a laboratory source of anhydrous hydrogen peroxide. Dissolved in water, it yields a mixture of hydrogen peroxide (which eventually decomposes to water and oxygen) and sodium carbonate ("soda ash")"

source
Craig W. Jones (1999). Applications of hydrogen peroxide and its derivatives. Royal Society of Chemistry. ISBN 0-85404-536-8.

Benefits:

    No environmental hazards - breaks down to oxygen, water and sodium carbonate (soda ash) in your wash water.
    Effectively kills wide range of bacteria, mould, algae, viruses, fungi
    Colour safe and fabric safe. It brightens colours and prevents fabrics from becoming yellowed or darkened
    Effective stain removal on a multitude of surfaces
    In the laundry Sodium Percarbonate is used to destain, deodorize, and whiten. It is very effective as a laundry presoak for heavily stained articles.

source

http://buychemicals.ie/products/sodium-percarbonate-ultra-pure?gclid=CJTGgd3ui7cCFYo72wodADcAfQ

lots here to keep ye chewing

[imark]

It usually blasts off all the crud in under an hour. It can leave a residue in my experience. So I rinse everything immediately after it comes out.