First AG: Citra American Pale Ale Advice

[molc]

So I'm giving this a go next week now that all my gear has arrived, so just wondering if anyone has any comments to add. I'm aiming to keep the mash on the high side to make it a little sweeter, while having the citra flavour and aroma front and center. Also, doing a first wort on the hops, again to have more flavour and a tad less sharp bitterness.

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 20.00 l
Boil Size: 24.77 l
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 22.88 l
Final Bottling Vol: 19.00 l

4.536 kg Pale Malt (Weyermann) (6.5 EBC) Grain 1 80.0 %
0.454 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 8.0 %
0.227 kg Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 3 4.0 %
0.227 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 4 4.0 %
0.227 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 5 4.0 %
14.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 6 21.4 IBUs
22.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 14.2 IBUs
21.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 9.9 IBUs
21.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 5.4 IBUs
21.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 10 1.2 IBUs
1.0 pkg English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [35.49 ml] Yeast 11 -
43.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs

Est Original Gravity: 1.064 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.020 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.8 %
Bitterness: 52.0 IBUs
Est Color: 19.0 EBC

Mash Profile
Mash In Add 14.79 l of water at 74.6 C 66.7 C 60 min
Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 15.66l) of 75.6 C water .

Fermentation:
Temp: 19 C for 14 days, then dry hop and set to 18 for 7 days
Carb @ 2.3 Vol

[Bubbles]

Grain and hop bill looks great, though I'd be inclined to use a different yeast. IPAs should be dry and WLP002 is not going to give you a dry beer, especially at a gravity of 1.064. Would you consider US-05/WLP001?

Also, WLP002 (and highly floccing English yeasts in general) have a tendency to mute hop flavours. You might want to compensate by adding more hops.

[molc]

Yup, that's intentional with the yeast. I'm aiming for a beer in the style of zombie dust, which the brewery has confirmed as using Wyeast 1968 to ferment. WLP002 is the equivalent. It's a much sweeter style of IPA, with the flavour rather than the bitterness meant to be the dominating aspect. I was also aiming to up the hop content, but I have exactly 150gm of Citra in the freezer, so the recipe is fitting that

It would be interesting experiment to do it with US-05 at some point as well. I see a split batch in my future.

If it turns out drinkable I'll bring it along to a meet and you can see how it compares to your usual IPA

[Bubbles]

Please do! Love Citra beers.

I've often seen clone recipes for Stone beer which specify WLP002 as the yeast, which has always confused me. I'm sure the results will be nice, but you're going to get a lot of body with it. WLP007 is a great yeast too, similar in flavour to WLP002 but a little more attenuation. Though I've not tried it in an American style pale ale/IPA myself.

[molc]

Ever tried http://odellbrewing.com/beer/st-lupulin/? It has quite a full body and malt character, yet has all the character of the hops. It's quite a different way to doing it, but I'm a real fan. I'm really hoping this will turn out to have a similar profile.

If not, well, it's going to be a fun experiment

[Bubbles]

I've had it and thought it was good, but I suspect it might not have been a fresh bottle I had. I seem to remember expecting a bit more bitterness. Something along the lines of Hoptimum.

Incidentally, I had a fresh bottle of Hoptimum recently and didn't think it was as impressive as last years..

[molc]

Yeah, it's def. not bitter, which I think is the point for it as a style of American PA/IPA. Personally I love it, but not to everyone's tastes for sure. I think this will turn out closer to that, but can't wait to see what will happen now.

I'm sure @Rossa or someone would be able say exactly what sort of style beer it is

[Qs]

St. Lupulin is an "Extra Pale Ale" as opposed to an IPA, as is Zombie Dust AFAIK. The idea being to sit between PA and IPA a bit.

Let us know how the brew turns out Molc, I've had that Zombie Dust recipe sitting round for ages and after getting a big bag of citra recently from Tube I think I might give it a go in the new year.

[molc]

A bit of googling and it turns out they call it an American Pale Ale, http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php#1a, so while it's hoppy, it's not really an IPA at all. I've updated the title to reflect and not cause any confusion.

I'll let ye know how it turns out.

[Qs]

I've seen it described as both in different places.

I haven't had ZD but I definitely think the St' Lupulin tastes more like a pale ale than an IPA to me.

[mcooney]

I made a Zombie Dust clone a few months ago and thought it was delicious.
I'd up your dry hop portion. I used the Safale 04 English Ale yeast.

Recipe below

Fermentable   Colour   lb: oz   Grams   Ratio
Pale Malt   5 EBC   11 lbs. 0.4 oz   5000 grams   84.7%
Munich Malt   20 EBC   1 lbs. 1.6 oz   500 grams   8.5%
Crystal Malt, Pale   60 EBC   0 lbs. 7.0 oz   200 grams   3.4%
Carapils   4.5 EBC   0 lbs. 7.0 oz   200 grams   3.4%


Hop Variety   Type   Alpha   Time   lb: oz   grams   Ratio
Citra   Whole   14.7 %   FWH           0 lbs. 0.7 oz   21 grams   8.4%
Citra   Whole   14.7 %   15 mins   0 lbs. 1.2 oz   35 grams   13.9%
Citra   Whole   14.7 %   10 mins   0 lbs. 1.2 oz   35 grams   13.9%
Citra   Whole   14.7 %   5 mins   0 lbs. 1.2 oz   35 grams   13.9%
Citra   Whole   14.7 %   0 mins   0 lbs. 1.2 oz   35 grams   13.9%
CitraDryHop   Whole   14.7 %   0 mins   0 lbs. 3.2 oz   90 grams   35.9%

[biertourist]

As someone who's now on my 2nd pound of Citra in 2 years, my advice is not to use Citra for bittering; it can get very unpleasant if you use too much as a bittering addition.

-Also, why waste those delicious and expensive hops early in the boil when you won't even be able to taste their contribution?


More and more I'm moving my hoppy beers to ONLY have huge late hop additions or else I just use Nugget (or a new hop that I try but don't like) as bittering additions and save my precious Citra and NZ varieties for late kettle / dry hop additions.

I think I'm slowly moving in the direction of the best IPA makers which is towards using only hop extract for bittering, making EXTREMELY pale grists, focus on low FG during mashing, and add loads of late, whirlpool and dry hop additions only. -There's a reason the highest rated IPA end up there.  Even the East Coast guys are slowly getting converted to using hop extract for bittering additions and removing almost all crystal malts from the malt bill.

See: Heady Topper and any of the newer Pliny recipes.



Adam

[biertourist]

St. Lupulin is an "Extra Pale Ale" as opposed to an IPA, as is Zombie Dust AFAIK. The idea being to sit between PA and IPA a bit.

Let us know how the brew turns out Molc, I've had that Zombie Dust recipe sitting round for ages and after getting a big bag of citra recently from Tube I think I might give it a go in the new year.

Like usual the lines are blurred and any lines you draw are stepping on real life examples.  Making style guidelines is sort of like beer racism...

"Extra Pale Ale" means just that-focusing on very light color. But you can clearly see that the trend started with the West Coast IPAs which really avoid any crystal or other malts that would darken the wort / increase the FG.  "Extra Pale Ale", which is not a style, could just as easily be called "West Coast Pale Ale".


I'm fully in the West Coast IPA camp these days and I want both the malt and the yeast to just get out of the way of the hops; I also want a focus on FLAVOR / AROMA EXPLOSION but with a more reduced, mellow bitterness.

On the Pale Ale front, I like them to be more balanced between malt and hops so I like the grists to include some speciality malt.
(If I'm honest though what I REALLY LIKE are "India Session Ales" which given the strengths that they normally come in are really just "Extra Pale Ales" with HUGE late hop additions.)   -I want that 4-5% ABV, low to medium levels of bitterness (perception; IBUs mean nothing to me) and HUGE hop aroma with a 2 row only (or 2 row + carapils or wheat malt to aid head retention). -These are my favorite beers all year long.


Adam

[Taf]

Totally agree re paler being better and dropping crystal or similar for hoppy beers. Double irish is a great example of this at the moment.

[Hop Bomb]

Kernel double citra is probably the best hoppy beer Ive ever had. Better than pliny imo. Kernel citra is 1 malt & 1 hop afaik. No faff, trim the fat etc.

Some notes from Kernel via Matthew Dick:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_cz54adDEInaHZyOHpzc1V4YzVhNWdYd25uSWtGM1JJVWRN/view?usp=sharing

Ive seen a recipe of theirs on another forum which was got from a screen shot of a video at their brewery. I think the grist is simpsons best pale ale with some simpsons low colour marris otter. Not 100% marris otter like the recipe notes in the above link. Hope this helps.