National Competition - Some Issues

[Saruman (Reuben Gray)]

I brought this up both in Galway and Dublin but I feel it should be aired on the forum for discussion.

First off, a big congratulations to the organisers for a mammoth task. I don't envy you in any way. The time and effort that goes in to these things is ridiculous, especially for a group of volunteers.

Now, to where I would like to see improvements that would benefit not just the judges but also the entrants especially.

The 2 bottle requirement simply isn't good enough for a national level competition in my opinion. It's fine for a small regional that only takes a couple of hours and might have 20 entries or less. I believe that there should be a 3 bottle requirement, possibly even 4*.
I believe that each time a judge tastes a particular beer, it should be from a fresh bottle. That means:

- One bottle for initial judging.
- One for a mini BOS - Very important as it determines medal.
- One for BOS - Very important for obvious reasons.
- An optional 4th for redundancy*.

Here are the issues as I see them. Judging starts at 10:30 and a very high scoring beer gets shall we say 47 points? That beer is very likely going to get a medal but what happens is that the leftover beer is then set aside with the open cap shoved back on and brought back out at mini BOS. This happens after lunch, a good 3 or 4 hours later. That 47 has been sitting out, losing carbonation, exposed to air and has already been swirled around making it murky with yeast, assuming it's bottle conditioned. The beer presented to the mini bos is not the same beer that scored 47 points earlier and may not win a medal.
That puts the likely winner of the mini bos as a high scoring beer towards the end of the first session, one that has only been sitting around for less than an hour.

One option is to have a capper and caps on hand and place the beer in to a cool environment, that's better than nothing but it's still not going to provide the optimum experience in determining a medal. I think that mini BOS is more important to the brewer than BOS and judges should not be judging dregs that have been sitting around for hours. It's unfair to the judges and especially unfair to the brewers.

Now, there is an argument that requiring an extra bottle will significantly add to the number of bottles that need to be taken care of. It will but for our national competition, I think it's our duty to deal with that extra hassle for the integrity of the competition.

Every beer that's up for a medal should be on an absolutely level playing field which means a freshly bottle opened.
Not everyone who enters believes they might win a medal, some just want feedback in order to improve their skills. Entering a 3rd bottle could be made optional but I feel it should be mandatory. It gives everyone a level playing field going in to the competition.

*The extra beer for redundancy is just in case of a disaster but should not be required of course.

[irish_goat]

I agree somewhat. Regarding recapping and putting the beer back into cold storage that really depends on the setup. There's no way we could manage that in a venue like Alfie's where the cold room is miles away but if it's a venue like the Oslo it's a bit more manageable. We were going to recap bottles properly at Alfies like we did last year but I forgot to bring the capper. Next year I'll try and remember to bring a capper + fresh caps.

I'm not sure how adding a 3rd bottle would be for the bottle sorters and people who then have to transport them about (i.e. Ciderhead). At the minute I think he fills a trailer with crates. Would probably need a small van if there's a 33% increase in bottles.

Perhaps, as a compromise the 3rd bottle should only be required for the bigger categories e.g. Stouts, American Ales. Basically, the ones who then have a mini BOS. Failing that, judges should be advised to leave enough in the bottle for the mini BOS.

[Saruman (Reuben Gray)]

Perhaps, as a compromise the 3rd bottle should only be required for the bigger categories e.g. Stouts, American Ales. Basically, the ones who then have a mini BOS. Failing that, judges should be advised to leave enough in the bottle for the mini BOS.

Good point, some of the smaller categories wouldn't need a mini BOS so two bottles will suffice.

[lordstilton]

So that's why I didn't get gold!!

[Saruman (Reuben Gray)]

Clearly yes 

[Partridge9]

I appreciate the sentiment, but a third bottle is simply un-able Adding  33 per cent more crates is a nightmare.
judges shouldn't require a full bottle for first round, we have had a few instances of a full bottle being consumed , this has only happened with 40+ beers.
I appreciate your frustration around the 50 beer.
I'd strongly recommend improving the process with 2 bottles , bottle capers ,Refrigeration
it sounds draconian but we might need to limit the tasting sample judges use, if judges are pouring too much ,this needs to be flagged.
it can be hard to tell off a judge, the stewards and head steward don't have an easy job.

Probably wise to meet up in a couple of weeks do a de-brief on the whole gig.

I'm still exhausted,  have to go through the paperwork this evening. Need to get those scoreheets out ASAP

James

[mcgrath]

Could BOS be judged at a later date? Either 3rd bottle is submitted after you win gold or the third bottle is stored elsewhere and only collected for bos judging.

[Saruman (Reuben Gray)]

I'm not talking about volume, I'm talking about freshness.

The volume is largely irrelevant, but would come in to it somewhat. I think only one beer was reduced to the dregs due to people trying it as well as judges taking more to double check our findings.

I'm not sure where the beer that scored 50 even comes in to it. There was plenty left and it was near the end of the session so should have been able to stand on its own merit as it wasn't hanging around for long.
It was a frustration in Galway and Dublin as well as in previous years where mini bos comes up and a beer that either I judged or someone else judged came up, was recognised but it had been sitting there so long that it wasn't the beer that was originally judged. In fact James, I think you have been in that position too if I remember correctly from Cork.

I had thought that a separate BOS day might be useful.

[Partridge9]

Apologies,  I thought this was stemming from the 50 Not getting a good swing at it.
I take your point on freshness, but I suppose if its all judged in the mornung session this situation is helped.
if you did bos on a separate day  , then you could potentially  get a third bottle sent in, but the integrity of the entries could be a problem and also not judging bos on the same day is a bit of a let down.

I'd recommend getting the volunteers together and get  feedback on pros and cons. I personally think it's very smoothly run, we probably could get more helpers with the back office, kellie and vinny and Paula got particularly  hammered yesterday. (With work !), that was a little unfair and we should ensure it doesn't happen next year.

[johnrm]

+1

Having a BOS at a later date turns it into a 3 day affair which excludes anyone outside the Pale as inevitably this is where it will be held.

A 100ml or so sample should be adequate for judging - I believe some tables were returning empty bottles from the first round - this is not a piss-up. Emptying a good beer on the first round is not acceptable. The only case where this may be an issue if there are more than 2 judges at a table - sometimes unavoidable.

1 x bench capper might help, capping straight away after judging - the sparkle may be gone, and oxidation should be minimal. If the beers are that memorable they would hopefully stand out.

[Bubbles]

Probably wise to meet up in a couple of weeks do a de-brief on the whole gig.

Could this be done as a thread/PM/email in order to get as much judge feedback as possible?

I'd like to contribute to this, but I'm unlikely to make a F2F meeting in the next couple of weeks.

[Bubbles]

I believe some tables were returning empty bottles from the first round - this is not a piss-up.

Sorry John lad, I know you're raising a very valid point, but I pisd myself laughing reading that.. 

I have to confess, that although myself and CH never sent back an empty bottle from the first round, we probably did over-pour a bit and we left ourselves a bit short on one particular beer for the mini BOS.

It would have been good idea to remind judges of this in the briefing. (Did the judges briefing even happen? I arrived pretty early, but I never saw a briefing going on...)

[Rossa]

Very quickly - 1000 beers barely fit into a trailer. If we take 3 times that then we need a truck for 1500 entries. We would need a monster cold room and all but 25 beer will be thrown away.  I'll get to a computer later but the logistics are huge.

[Bubbles]

Anyone know why the cider/mead winners, and BOS winners aren't appearing on the registration site??

[Rossa]

I do appreciate your feedback btw and I'll be mailing judges about it later in the week to see how we can keep winning going forward. Cheers.