Pre-Competition Tasting in "The Dark Horse, Blackrock" - Wednesday 2nd December

[bachus]

@Bubbles: Big thanks for well organized meeting! Great job!
Thanks guys for a great evening. Thanks again to 'big six' who was able to join us.

BTW - I was asked about mead and what was added. Very young 10L batch (03/2015; still needs more aging).
Recipe come from my grandfather notebook and  polish handbook of meadmaking "Meadmaking. The art of converting honey and fruits into beverages") from 1925- the author was a professor of botany at the University of Lwow.

Gravity: Start: ~1.1057  Fin:   ~1.020 
2.5 liters honey [type: Quadruple    1:4]
7.5 liters water
0.5g cloves
2g  cinamon
6g hops [3g "Lubelski + 3g "Casade" (thanks Ronan for Hops).]
5 grams juniper
Time required for aging: min 1 year
Citric acid: one big lemon

[Leann ull]

I was one of the "big" six that judged that mead and there was black lilac as well?
I have drunk a lot of mead over the years because I, as somebody described me recently, am a bee pimp, working 50K ladies per hive.
There was an aspect of this one that I wasn't too keen on, the oxidation, and so this is where the BJCP system breaks down, so my fellow judge loved the oxidation as it brought more complexity and profile but to me it was a flaw as I am judging against more traditional meads and BJCP standards which have no oxidation and we had a great debate on the topic and the reason we called you in half way through judging, so culturally as you kindly took the time to educate us in Poland you expose the mead to oxygen whereas us more conservative fermentors (boring if you like) minimise the headspace and even apply co2 blanket in headspace. So I say to you thank you for the education and this will be a tricky one for us in the nationals. jfi for everybody i scored him a 40 
   

[ronnieb]

A great night even if I had no beer to get judged or even offer for tasting.
Well done to all for an always great time.

That tactical nuclear Dave is a dangerous yet delicious beer imho!

[David]

Big thanks to the judges and Connor for their time and effort. It all seemed to go smoothly. Really enjoyable night.

[Bubbles]

There was an aspect of this one that I wasn't too keen on, the oxidation, and so this is where the BJCP system breaks down, so my fellow judge loved the oxidation as it brought more complexity and profile but to me it was a flaw as I am judging against more traditional meads and BJCP standards which have no oxidation and we had a great debate on the topic and the reason we called you in half way through judging, so culturally as you kindly took the time to educate us in Poland you expose the mead to oxygen whereas us more conservative fermentors (boring if you like) minimise the headspace and even apply co2 blanket in headspace. So I say to you thank you for the education and this will be a tricky one for us in the nationals. jfi for everybody i scored him a 40 

Great discussion last night about bachus' mead. As CH says, we took the unusual step of calling the "brewer" in to explain the style they had made, because it baffled the judges. (Not a slight on the judges, of course, this very traditional mead just doesn't conform to "THE GUIDELINES".)

However, I found the following in the "BJCP Mead Exam Study Guide" PDF:

Not all oxidation is bad, since oxidation can produce interesting complexity in mead. The organic chemistry is fairly complicated and involves multiple reactions, but oxygen, alcohols and acids can react slowly to produce esters. Oxidation can also produce nutty, sherry-like aromatics. Intentional oxidation is a part of some historical mead styles, such as Polish meads.

There has to be a home for these mead styles in the guidelines, but it's not immediately obvious. A pity, because they're amazing. I'm going to tweet Gordon Strong to get some advice. Will report back! ☺️

[Shanna]

Big thanks to the judges and Connor for their time and effort. It all seemed to go smoothly. Really enjoyable night.

Ditto thanks to Conor & also to the judges for taking the time to explain their feedback. Good to see some of our regulars also for some nice beers.

Shanna

[Bubbles]

Thanks for the comments lads.

[Bubbles]

Reply from Gordon Strong on Twitter this morning:

I make them too.  Look at category M4B.  It's listed by name... Be sure to describe it, though. There are many examples.

So I took a look at the BJCP Mead Guidelines for M4B (Historical Mead) and it mentions "Jadwiga", but doesn't describe the actual flavours that judges need to be looking out for. As far as I can see, there is indeed a gaping hole in the guidelines for these types of meads. I've asked Gordon to clarify where judges can find an actual description of Jadwiga.

https://guidelines.beerstyles.co/2015-m4b-historical-mead/

[molc]

Thanks to the comments from this, I'm going to be re-brewing my recipe for the nationals. I can see where the original recipe went wrong, so fingers crossed the fixes will work.

Thanks again for organising - really was a help.

[Bubbles]

Thanks to the comments from this, I'm going to be re-brewing my recipe for the nationals. I can see where the original recipe went wrong, so fingers crossed the fixes will work.

Thanks again for organising - really was a help.

What did your beer score? Where did the judges pick up flaws, and how are you going to resolve them?

[molc]

Thanks to the comments from this, I'm going to be re-brewing my recipe for the nationals. I can see where the original recipe went wrong, so fingers crossed the fixes will work.

Thanks again for organising - really was a help.

What did your beer score? Where did the judges pick up flaws, and how are you going to resolve them?

It's an american amber, that scored a 29 and a 32. The comments were that the hop aroma was good but then the flavour didn't follow through, being a little thin and not as sweet as expected.

When I looked at my original recipe, my grain substitution was Crystal 30L for Crystal 40L and Crystal 90L for Crystal 120L, which would lose some of the complexity in the flavours.

I'm fixing that, as well as adding some carared for sweetness, aromatic malt for additional malt flavour, instead of munich, then caramunich ii, special B and a touch of pale chocolate for an added mix of medium and dark fruit flavours. Also going to use WLP001 instead of US-05, to get rid of a pear note that was noticed by one judge.
The mash is also going from 68 to 69, for some more dexterins.

The only issue now is since our grains are darker than the americans, I'm right on the edge of the style at 17SRM. Hopefully all the grains give red and not any brown.

[Bubbles]

Hmm.. strange that you got a lot body with a 68C mash temp... Can you post the amounts of crystal that you used, and the batch size?

I can't say I ever got pear notes from US-05. That seems to me to be a fermentation temperature issue or possibly a pitching temperature issue. US-05 is not as clean as WLP001, but in a hoppy and malty beer like an American amber, the small amount of yeast character should compliment the hops. I'd say, don't give up on US-05 just yet.

Go easy with that C120. It gets pretty intense if used in large amounts. A dab'll do ya..

[bachus]

I was one of the "big" six that judged that mead and there was black lilac as well?
I have drunk a lot of mead over the years because I, as somebody described me recently, am a bee pimp, working 50K ladies per hive.
There was an aspect of this one that I wasn't too keen on, the oxidation, and so this is where the BJCP system breaks down, so my fellow judge loved the oxidation as it brought more complexity and profile but to me it was a flaw as I am judging against more traditional meads and BJCP standards which have no oxidation and we had a great debate on the topic and the reason we called you in half way through judging, so culturally as you kindly took the time to educate us in Poland you expose the mead to oxygen whereas us more conservative fermentors (boring if you like) minimise the headspace and even apply co2 blanket in headspace. So I say to you thank you for the education and this will be a tricky one for us in the nationals. jfi for everybody i scored him a 40 

Hi CH. Proper oxidation is most important part of the fermentation and aging. I am moving mead 4-5 times/year to the second carboy/demijohn and doing proper aeration.
Just a quick question... I have an ace up my sleeve: 'Kapucynski trojniak' Capuchins Triple Mead): cinnamon, ginger, vanilla, hops; aged with cherry chips.  Very Sweet high-alcohol juice (~15%). Start: ~1.1536 fin ~1.0568. Very low carbonation/oxydation. I am trying to understand BJCP 2015 guidelines (http://www.bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Mead.pdf). Can you explain me how should I classify my mead? 

[molc]

Hmm.. strange that you got a lot body with a 68C mash temp... Can you post the amounts of crystal that you used, and the batch size?

I can't say I ever got pear notes from US-05. That seems to me to be a fermentation temperature issue or possibly a pitching temperature issue. US-05 is not as clean as WLP001, but in a hoppy and malty beer like an American amber, the small amount of yeast character should compliment the hops. I'd say, don't give up on US-05 just yet.

Go easy with that C120. It gets pretty intense if used in large amounts. A dab'll do ya..

The original recipe is here.  http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/index.php/topic,10849.0.html
I'll put the new recipe up there now, just to clean up the threads.

[Bubbles]

A reply from Gordon Strong:

But Polish meads are mentioned. So be sure to describe it as intentionally oxidized.

Fair enough on being more descriptive, but there is no reference to Polish mead in M4B. Maybe it's somewhere else in the guidelines..?